What's the difference between a golf ball and a Nissan Leaf?

A golf ball can be driven 300 yards. 

​Most people just plug in when they get home from work for a full 'tank' in the morning. At £3 to charge from home that's 100 miles for £3. compare that to around £11 if you have a car that can do around 50 mpg and the savings soon add up. What's nice about an electric car is getting into it on a freezing morning and the car is de-iced and warm as you can preheat it before you set off. Its fun too just point and stamp on the accelerator for instant go. I have a Leaf and don't wish to swap back to an ice car, yes I would like more range but my commute is small and 99.9% of the time range is not an issue. If I need more range I can fast charge or pinch the wife's civic. When I change it will either be for a longer range EV or the i3 as that quick and it is tempting.

Electric cars are not for the near future until the UK gets its electricity generation up to scratch, we have just enough electricity to cover demand, if just 5% of the cars on UK roads were replaced with electric vehicles that need charging, then the UK's electricity supply would be screwed.

At the moment it's not for people who can't park right outside their houses.
Do they have plans to knock all these houses down and supply everyone with new houses then.
Millions of houses have no direct parking outside. Even terraced housing with only pavement between front door and car isn't viable and this will only get worse as space becomes more limited.
It makes me laugh that the marketing of electric cars is pushed as being cheap to charge, cheap to run, cheap ved but the reality is that they are still cars for the wealthy.
It's like having a food bank for homeless people based on an island that you need your own helicopter to get to.

£6 quid at services for a hundred miles doesn't sound much good considering the draw is supposed to be cheap miles!
Nor does sitting at your local Nissan for an eternity waiting for some charge whilst supposedly feeling great that it's free.

What's the difference between a golf ball and a Nissan Leaf?

A golf ball can be driven 300 yards. 

As an aside, these vehicles also exclude people who cannot guarantee to get it close to their house for charging (i.e. shared parking).

​Exactly, this is a positive. The worst you'll have to pay is £6 on the occasion you travel a long way.

London Mayor Sadiq Khan wants £21.50 to drive through London if you have a "dirty diesel". This is congestion charge free (£10 registration per year). VED is free. These are perfect city cars or as a second car.
The "eternity" at a fast charge point on the motorway or at the dealers is 20-30 mins for an 80% charge just time for a coffee or nippingvto the asda that's next to the dealers locally. If you buy domestic electricity from ecotricity motorway top ups are free (and you get the £6 refunded at IKEA at their points). The economics of owning an electric car are changing.

Tried one of these on the Nissan 4 day trial. Was really impressed, no problem obtaining a charge. Did about 600 miles. If u use a car for local trips, short commutes, it is brilliant. But I won't be buying until the real range is up to the 200 mile mark. Would jump at one then, at the right price.
https://testdrive.nissan.co.uk/booking/leaf

​a charging point vs a standard plug I assume is there really much benefit at home as I assume it's just a differnce in charging time.

Electric cars are not for the near future until the UK gets its electricity generation up to scratch, we have just enough electricity to cover demand, if just 5% of the cars on UK roads were replaced with electric vehicles that need charging, then the UK's electricity supply would be screwed.

From 10% to 90% (which is generally the max you will charge) will take about 8 hours on a home basic podpoint charger. On a home 3 pin plug about 12 hours.
But in general most people charge to 80% drive to work an back and when they get home connect the charger and top it back upto 80%. The least degradation happens if you keep the battery between 20% and 80%.

This is if people charge at peak times. Most electric car owners charge at night when we have excess capacity.

As we move to electric prices will rise. This will encourage people to use more economy 7 and 10 style tarrifs.

In the long term two things will happen. One you will use your car to load balance your electric use. Fill the car at night when there is lots of electric and use car to grid and use some electric from the car at home.

On the bigger scale old battery packs will store excess power at night to be delivered to the grid at peak times.

All the above already happen in places around the world.

What happens if you can't park near your house?

Honestly if you can't charge at home/work owning one will end up being a pain in the backside. So at the moment it's probably not for you.

But in the future when cars can do 250+ miles on a charge and Tesla, CCS and Chademo all have the 350kw chargers spending 10 mins to get 200+ miles of range won't be so bad.

​His only source is that one of the 3 monkeys said it on The Grand Tour a few weeks ago.

he probably has seen a few articles about the blackouts and the spare capacity such as thus one and similar and in a way is probably correct

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/08/uk-relies-on-emergency-measures-to-avert-winter-blackouts/amp/?client=ms-android-samsung

as I don't really think that 5 percent of EV would all top up at night and not use the cars in the winter when the there is a higher demand anyway. doing roughly 12000 miles a year assume 30 kwh give 100 miles is alot of extra electricity at around 3600 kwh for each car per annum. if it's 5 percent that's like another 1.6million cars or say 2 million extra houses to power up. and each year the cars are increasing steadily so seems like it would be a issue.

At the moment it's not for people who can't park right outside their houses.
Do they have plans to knock all these houses down and supply everyone with new houses then.
Millions of houses have no direct parking outside. Even terraced housing with only pavement between front door and car isn't viable and this will only get worse as space becomes more limited.
It makes me laugh that the marketing of electric cars is pushed as being cheap to charge, cheap to run, cheap ved but the reality is that they are still cars for the wealthy.
It's like having a food bank for homeless people based on an island that you need your own helicopter to get to.

electricity is made using coal gas and petroleum it's really not as efficient at the moment as the government's make it out to be looking into it it looks like a electric car which gives around 100 miles to 30 kwh is equivalent to around 48mpg of petrol so not a hugely environmentally friendly car.

There are lots of arguments for electric cars not just economic. One of them is the removal of the pollution from the place of use. This will benefit everyone who lives near a road or in a city not just those who can afford to buy an electric car.
Roadside charging points are already in use up and down the country -in some cases in residential areas. The demonisation of diesel and forthcoming diesel scrappage scheme for pre 2007 cars will provide a tipping point for this sort of technology,

No as I explained already for people who live in town houses and flats ect it's not there yet.
In the future you will top up at the supermarket, carparks or at a petrol station just as you do now. But instead of filling with petrol you will fill it with Electricity.

The big change will come when ICE cars start being excluded from places like citys. So city car park spaces will all have charge points.

What you need to look at is in basically 5 years we have gone from no Electric car market to where we are now.

In Norway (due to incentives) 1 in 3 new cars sold is Electric.

​Ecotricity supply electric that only comes from renewables so that's a load of tosh.

So being conservative and saying you only get 100 from the 27kw of usable energy in the leaf will cost you less than £2 on economy 7*. A 50mpg car would use 2 gallons of fuel which would cost in the region of £11. Quite a difference.

Many people have solar panels too. As you get 50% FIT payments however much you actually feed in this also helps.

* You will pay slight more for your daytime usage.

Exactly.

Breakdown for 2105.

Gas 30%
Renewables 25%
Coal 22%
Nuclear 21%
Oil/other 2%

Renewables are expected to hit 30% by 2020.

​I was talking about efficient not the cost as 13.7kwh electric is produced using 1 gallon of petroleum or around 1 pound of coal for 1kwh of electricity production. as these are still being used to provide the electric we use until we go say over 50 percent renewable it really isn't as good for the environment as is suggestive by the media government that's all I'm saying I would get one aswell if I could afford it.

​well that's not the whole uk is it we need look overall don't we.

I really want an electric car but is this really that good of a deal?

Like your teacher said "show your working" as you are talking utter tosh.

How do they manage that then? Nuclear, goal, gas, wind etc are all connected to the same national grid. You have no idea where those electrons came from you only have the word of your supplier that they buy only the green ones.

"cars for the wealthy" are you drunk? It's cheap motoring for the sensible. Having a driveway is a choice, if you made the right choices you could have one too. The savings from an electric would likely pay the extra mortgage.

Could be argued that if you only have a short commute then get on your bike.....

But deal still hot as better than dirty diesel.

Official status here

UK Peak demand is about 55 gigawatts (GW). The night time load is about 38 GW even in winter. The spare capacity is therefore 17 GW according to gov.uk figures. Enough for about 20 million cars at average usage without the need for a single additional power station.

Figures taken from:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/295225/Seasonal_variations_in_electricity_demand.pdf

I don't think there has been a single post about this deal ie cheaper at x or good price (I say think as it dawned on my I was reading the post debating our energy 'crisis' not the Nissan leaf... maybe there are a couple out of 35)

Also hot as I think its a good price if the car is right for you.

Aside from arguing the toss about the pros and cons of this car. Im gonna say this is a good deal. Voted hot

Be careful this is likely to do 120 miles max in the Summer. 155milesisnot realistic!

This is of course nonsense!
Until Ecotricity can install their own countrywide national grid to transport their energy then you take what is put into the grid and that could be from any generation method.

The amount of companies claiming a percentage of so called 'green' generation would equal more than the capacity of the entire country.

And BTW renewable sources presumably includes nuclear?

Dont they have portable chargers for these cars? Would like to give Electric a chance but my car is too far from the house and office!

Infrastructure not mature or reliable enough for us in our area (Cheshire), so ours is going back next month and we've gone back to petrol.

Give it 5 years and the charging network and car range will be much better.

Would 3.8GW do it?
http://www.nugeneration.com/about_nugen.html

Portable charger are available from B&Q and Screwfix. Google Petrol Generator.

Listened to the Science Friday Podcast today that had a part about batteries:

http://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/which-new-battery-technology-will-take-electric-vehicles-to-the-finish-line/

It seems 5x capacity is on it's way, this would be a real game changer for EV.

When working out the total cost of ownership, bear in mind that the annual (18,000 mile) service costs £99.
Vehicle tax is free. The tyres seem to wear less than petrol cars.
C&C Taxis just sold a leaf that had done 170,000 miles. In that time it needed 2 sets of pads, 1 track rod end, wipers. The car had lost 26% of its battery capacity.
More here:
C&C on twitter
These cars are great!

What ever happened to the types of deals like the Renault Zoe deal in 2015?

£114 p/month, nil deposit, over 24 months. Currently in one myself :smiley:

Car goes back in November and was hoping to get something else on order before then. Needs to be a similar monthly figure though. Not overly fussed about it being Electric or not.

How on earth do you work out 17gw equating to 20milion cars?? That's less than a kwh per car and considering a leaf does 3-4 miles per kwh then I suggest your maths is wrong.

Voted hot. I ordered one last week. £2500 down and £208 per month over 3 years with 20,000 miles per year. I currently use a motorbike half the year for my 65 mile round trip commute. This car will replace the bike as well for that trip so reducing my annual bike mileage and saving cash that way too. It will also replace using my wife's 123d at weekend for shopping trips and local running about. I'm quids in any way you look at it.

For comparison our Leaf 3.3kw in solid red, purchased new in March 2015 cost:
£1100 deposit
23 x £84 per month
1 x £13500 (optional final payment).
6000 miles per annum, no doc fee, no road tax, free first service and returning one month early so no second service.

Great, smooth car just needs 200/250 miles per charge.

This isn't a lease it's a PCP it's registered to you.

I bought my leaf tekna in may 2015 and the wife and I love the car. I live around 20 miles from work mostly motorway and it's a joy to drive. Mine is up in April and I will be getting another. Not often do I travel more than 100 miles in a day therefore can use the wife's car for those journeys. I really like how relaxing it is to drive, it's quiet and effortless with lots of refinement inside. I'm gonna wait till the end of the financial year in march and phone round the dealers to see who hasn't hit their targets and fancy giving me a great deal.

This is a leaf! However I now realise this deal isn't a lease, so I've deleted my original comment.

Lol I noticed my appropriate auto correct and corrected it.

Nissan do a 4 day test drive on these. I was sold on the economics of these but the surprise was how easy and enjoyable it was to drive. The Bose stereo, leather seats and heated everything makes it a nice place to be. Remember this is the top of the range with every option (other than 6.6kW charging and tiny solar panel). The pickup from traffic lights to 30 makes it one of the fastest cars around in city driving. I looked at a Zoe, i3 etc and the deals get nowhere near this deal.

Really? What is the source for this?

Interesting... I guess the price jumps steeply when you need a car to do 10,000 m/y.

​well I did before or are u too lazy to look into 8t urself maybe I'm out by a few percent points u want mark my homework teacher.

​I was talking about efficient not the cost as 13.7kwh electric is produced using 1 gallon of petroleum or around 1 pound of coal for 1kwh of electricity production. as these are still being used to provide the electric we use until we go say over 50 percent renewable it really isn't as good for the environment as is suggestive by the media government that's all I'm saying I would get one aswell if I could afford it.

​sorry but how is having a drive way a choice that we new about 20 or say 30 years ago didn't anticipate that there will be electric cars funded by the government at 5k a pop plus alot more funding so we should have bought houses with drive ways.All these eco type scheme's are funded by the public via the government. all that money could be spent on providing free public transport that way those whom don't like it can fund private transport themselves.

​They put into the system what they sell so they are carbon neutral and no it doesn't include nuclear!

​You can use them wherever you are, yes it all goes into the same 'pot' along with dirty generated but the theory is they put in what you use so your energy use is carbon neutral.

They are also now looking at natural gas production from rotting gas too that could end up heating our homes too if it proves successful.

​ur link is very worrying nothing about ur gigawatt theories in there it is showing a massive amount of coal is still used and it even states almost everyday at low peak water us pumped back up to generate more electricity. but ur claim there's enough electricity to power 20 million veheicles is well very redicilous even with ur given figures. let's take a look at them there's around 20 million homes with a average usage of electricity around 4k kwh hours this is roughly the same 20 million cars would use aswell so you are saying there's 50 percent extra capacity available which goes against ur own figures.

I would love this sort of thing.... my commute is 33 miles each way (can be up to 45 miles each way if have to go alternative routes due to traffic), 90% of which is at motorway speeds... so I think maybe this is not good enough yet in terms of range there and back on one charge might not be possible?? Plus 70+ miles a day times 200 days equals 14,000 a year..... so great deal but not quite there for me yet. Thanks OP.

£50 per week seems a bargain for one of these considering most people with petrol/Diesel engines probably spend £20 per week on fuel?

​what does optional final payment mean can u just say I don't want pay it and there's no issues is it like a lease deal these pcp things I don't really know about these.

The optional final payment (or guaranteed future value) of £15,683.14 is the amount you pay or finance at the end of 2 years if you want to keep the car. Otherwise you hand it back and get something else. If the car is worth more you can use it for another pcp deposit.
I have been told by more than one source that this is a version of the deal that Nissan give to their employees....

how many gears?

Can you repeat that in English?

So you are saying if demand exceeds what "green" power they have purchased they cut you off? No, no they don't they keep selling.

1

I have one. 6 quid will not you 100 miles. You don't have the luxury of pulling into a charger empty. You will often know that's the only rapid for a while and have to stick some juice in to get you to the next. Average 6 quid for 50 miles in real world coz charging from 40 or 50 percent still going to cost 6 quid. That's if the charger is working not parked in and not being used. Had mine on lease for 3 years. Older model have ONCE got JUST 90 miles. You get 70 in RW driving without driving over 65. So 70 plus 20 percent this newer model would give us 94 miles. Would not go 150. Great second car but think hard if it's your only car. My lease runs out in three weeks when I'm afraid I swap to fossil fuel. Long distance in these are cheaper in an economical diesel. They are a better drive as it's quiet smooth no transmission vibration and no smell. Done 30k in mine. Most of it when charging was free. One journey I do requires 5 charges for the reasons I have given and would be cheaper in my new car.

Really want one and on this deal it would be fantastic. Two issues for me. Local dealer won't offer a 4 day test drive and the Tesla Model 3 may come too late after this lease finishes so I'd need to find another car for a short term lease (reserved one on launch day, hopefully near the front of the queue but I don't expect to see them in the UK until late 2019). Really conflicted on this one!

Does anyone know what the excess mileage cost would be? I can cut down to 10000 miles per year but that's the minimum I can get away with.

Voted hot and it's brilliant that more people are going electric!

Excuse me. You have absolutely not idea what my knowledge and understanding is.

Oh but you are wrong. But I tell you what, why don't you bestow me with your superior knowledge on this matter?

I got our 3rd one for £201 per month no deposit, 6.6kWh charger and metalic black with 12,000 miles PA

I *might* have quoted the wrong user's post. :sunglasses:

Oops.

Just ask them to add it to the monthly cost.

Where from?

Letchworth

His maths isn't wrong.

"The watt-hour (symbolized Wh) is a unit of energy equivalent to one watt (1 W) of power expended for one hour (1 h) of time."

17GW and 17GWh aren't the same thing.

17GW x 8 hours = 136GWh
At 3MpkWh efficiency, 400 million miles.
If there's 20 million EVs on the road, that's 20 miles per vehicle per day using a portion of our spare production capacity during the night, on the coldest night of the year.

We can produce more than enough electricity. The challenge is using our production capacity in an effective manner; ensuring EVs charge when there's spare capacity and stop charging (or maybe even discharge) when demand spikes. Making this work while allowing the cars to be charged in time for the next journey is where the challenge lies.

Now that's a deal

Electric stuff generally doesn't last. You can find steam engines that still work after 100 years. Meanwhile, hoovers, laptops, hairdriers, phones etc only last about 5-10 years, I expect this car to be the same.

See many internal combustion powered cars on the road greater than 10 years old, do you?

That's a terrible comparison the steam engine will have been repaired hundreds of times over that 100 years and had many components replaced, domestic electrical appliances get thrown away on first fault no repair is generally attempted.

Blackpool trams are electric and they've been going a hundred years. An electric tram in Hiroshima was running the day after the bomb hit and is still running.

That's only because the cost of those items became so small that it was easier to replace than repair, which evolved further into non repairable products. TV repair used to be a full time profession.

No one is buying tesla's and expecting to bin them at the first sign of trouble

Yes, lots...anything with a 56 number plate or earlier. Until last year we had a 1.8 petrol internal combustion Y reg (2001) focus with 200k
Miles. Only got rid because it was 3 door and babies are useless at climbing into the back!!

When people are discussing the generation fuel cost of producing electricity to power cars, why do they always omit the fact that a lot of electrical power is used in the refining process. 6kw/h to produce a gallon of petrol or diesel.

Relative to the number of vehicles on the road, it's a small proportion, which was my point, not that they can't last.

Cars are seen, used and marketed as a moving feast, the vast majority of people change their car inside of 5 years, which if you're leasing this is all you need to be concerned with - it's a lease, not a permanent ownership contract.

Provided it works satisfactorily in the time you have it, what does it matter?

The deal is poorly described on the Nissan website but as far as I can see the excess mileage is 8p per mile or £800 for 10000 miles.

Just watched Revenge of the electric car - very interesting documentary.
After the shame of the ev1 it seems there is now a serious shift to electric.
Yes we have a dirty grid but this will improve in time.
The future is clearly electric - it is still early days.

Not quite true!
They don't generate much, and some days they don't generate anything at all. Mostly they sell the generation other companies offer, but it's all down to the way the grid is managed, which they have no control over, and I'm afraid it's fanciful to believe their claims that the energy you receive has been generated wholly from renewables.

However I can see the comfort blanket attraction for todays snowflake millennials who want so desperately to believe.

I think you need to re consider who the drunk one is. Or maybe your too wealthy to comprehend?
26 thousand pounds for the electric equivalent of a small 9k hatchback. cheap??
Having a driveway is a choice? All these stupid people that 'choose' not to have driveways. If I had known it was that easy. I should have just chosen the detached 7 bed with gated on off drive instead of the one bed flat. What was I thinking!
And even better, if I knew the extra 500k of mortgage on it would have been covered by the savings on my new 26k car!
I am very jealous that your buttler sorts all of these finances for you!

These cars cost £26k you say......wrong that's RRP nobody pays anything like that, you actually pay about £17k if you shop around.

£9k hatchback you say.......show me a £9k new hatchback with sat nav and full leather inc Bose sound system and I shall order one!!

You need a £500k 7 bed house to have a driveway? Are you dillusional? The difference between a house with or without a drive is around £50 a month mortgage payment, this car could easily save that difference. Unless of course you live in London which again is a choice but that choice is absorbed by the fact you will save £5 a day on congestion charges.

Its £18,389.97 for a car the size of a Ford Focus (list price from £19,415) for which you pay approximately £5000 over 2 years consisting of about 50% interest and 50% equity. At the end of 2 years you hand it back or pay just over £15000. Its a significantly nicer place to be than a basic focus and for many many people works really well as a second car.
Yes if you live in a flat, unless you have a designated parking place, it doesn't work at the moment but for many people this is a good deal. Fortunately my inner city Barratt starter home does have off street parking.
The forthcoming "T charge" in London and the march budget will herald a time of lack of confidence in diesel and will be replicated across the country in the targeted high pollution cities (e.g. Southampton, Sheffield, Nottingham etc) I think electricity is the near future......Nissan, Renault and Mitsubishi have targeted market share at the expense of profit but I'm not sure how long this will continue. EV batteries are improving all the time and Im not sure if the performance of past batteries are a reasonable guide to future or present ones.

​don't make excuses u know it's not true charging 20 million cars in one day even over night would give power cuts as the load would be what let's see, roughly 3kwh per hour per car or 60 million kwh plus+ the usual load I don't think the UK infastructure would cope with that.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/nissan/leaf

An informative review.

from 4 years ago

I didn't make an excuse I just asked you to clarify in English which you still don't appear to have done.

This is an auto , great

Any one buying a manual car in 2017 must have a grundig B and W TV at home

I think you are confusing the SI units. A watt (W) is a measure of power, not energy. Energy is measured in watts per hour (W/hr). I'll assume that the 4 miles per KW was intended to be 4 miles per KW/hr.
The national grid as it is today could produce about another 185-190 GW/hr a day, enough for 740-760 million miles. The average UK car drives 21 miles a day.

The Leaf a a nice car. About as good as a 110 horsepower diesel Golf, but a lot cheaper to run. It was released in 2011, so some of the electronics look a little dated now, but mechanically fine. I had one for two years and never missed a beat. Very relaxing to drive.

Maybe power generated by wind turbines could charge cars at night.

I thought the big problem with wind was that they had no way of storing the excess electrical generated. Store it in cars charging overnight

I agree manuals are outdated now.

Technically this isn't an auto, in fact it does not has a gearbox at all. However nissan have made it "familiar" by making the controls similar to a traditional auto, they have even created a simulated "creep"

I drives and feels like a normal auto for all intensive purposes.

The big problem with wind is the turbines don't operate when there is too little or too much wind.

Nuclear is the answer for base load overnight charging, subsidised by renewable energy. All fossil fuel power cannot be sustained long term.

Ah but he did manage a comma in the middle of that lot. As he still uses 'u' for 'you' we can safely assume he's under 12.

Hi I am aware of what the energy units are I was asking the original post.

I knew someone was going to point that out
Must be a good weight saving plus no friction lost in the gears. Less to go wrong

There is a huge wind farms outside Glasgow about 200 turbines, I go past them most days and they are always turning.
I guess they location plays a big part

Yes location does play a big part but the other limitation is they are tricky to install closest to demand for example London, Birmingham etc so have the adverse affect of ruining countryside in areas of low demand. I support renewable energy but they should be off shore.

Not if I purchased a car and its depreciation was massive compared to fossil fuel.
Not if there was range anxiety.
Many people who buy an electric car, do not save money.
6000 miles a year is a bit low or this deal which starts at 44p per mile before other charges.

You are aware pence per mile is at worst 6p or if at home charging is 3p, compared to around 14p for fossil fuel though right? That excluding the cheaper tax and servicing.

Depreciation on the other hand can be ignored on a PCP as it's comparable to a fossil fueled car in this example deal as you know exactly what it costs over the term.

So for arguments sake an average of 4.5p x 20k = £900 over the two years compared to about £2,800 for the same mileage in fossil fuel. In my case my solar panels generate £500 per annum so my miles are cheaper than free.

If you add into the mix zero road tax and £99 services then these are quite attractive offerings.

To me, range anxiety as they call it is just poor planning. If you set off on a 100 mile journey with 80 mile range then that's your look out.

I agreed electric cars are not ideal as your only car, but for a second car for local miles they make a lot of sense.

An excellent 2nd car or town car. Ok, the range is limited for long hauls but if you're a local driver then you cannot beat this.....Think there should be more charging points, universal charger adapters and faster recharges but time will tell as we are not good at change. I'm sure people felt this way when petrol cars came out....My horse doesn't need filling up, it's noisy compared with my horse, My horse is faster etc.

Don't forget nissan also lend you a fossil fuel car for up to 14days if you plan a trip further afield.

Details here

The UK infrastructure today won't cope with that. But thankfully the grid isn't managed by complete idiots. New generation capacity is being built and we're looking at ways to make the grid smarter. At the simplest level, that means if 20 million electric cars all need to be charged at once and there's only ~20GW of spare generation capacity, then those cars will recharge at an average of <1GW. Fortunately, it is unlikely that every EV out there will need charging at the same moment, so having to drop down to such a low charging rate is unlikely.

I run an EV as my only car. "Not ideal" is a fairly apt description. Most days I give it little thought, but it is occasionally inconvenient.

Give me an EV comfortably capable of 130+ miles and I'll be quite happy TBH provided it has 43kW+ rapid charging. So the new Zoe with Q90 option, or an Ioniq EV.

If I was looking for a new car today it would probably be the Leaf though at this price. The Zoe and Ioniq are close to double. The only thing I'm not keen on is the archaic 3.3kW charging at home.

That will be Norton Way Nissan then.

Just not quite enough range for my commute..

Bring on the model 3 :smiley:

UK refineries are using 6kw/h per gallon of fuel produced. If the electricity goes straight to the car instead of into the fuel then that energy is offset - not being used to produce fuel.

When you drive a petrol/diesel car, the first 20 miles of each gallon is electric energy indirectly used.

Quote on the PCP of 6000 miles. So 4p = £270
Quote on a diesel many have zero or £20 tax and do 60-70mpg. Let's say 50mpg it's cold = £650 fuel. Saving is £380. Let's say £400 if you £20 "road" tax.(I pay £20 and have a claimed 68mpg on my 3 series).
For £400 can I get a better PCP than the Leaf on a fossil fuel car? May be. Do I care for £400 savings when 1 car can cover all my journeys. If I pay £30k for a care do I car for £400 a year?

I need to drive 100 miles to the airport and 100 miles back. Will I make it? I have to charge. Are there free points? It's cold. No heating, else I will not make it. Time is money. £50 an hour. If I waste more than 8 hours a year, that is my savings wiped out. If pay I £6 at a service station that is a far bit. What do I do while it charges? Coffee? That costs. Can I use the time or is that wasted? These are other considerations.

As a replacement car it is useless for many. As a second car, it has advantages. I can see this.

Many will wait for a 250-300 mile range. Is Tesla the only option? It's expensive. If it is about money buy a second hand 3 year old car from a dealer with 1 year warranty and sell every year. Depreciation is lower than PCP.

2015 Tekna 1620 miles £12,000. Makes the final payment on this deal poor. Who would buy? These cars really depreciate.

The depreciation of a 3 series is huge around £400 a month so not even in the same league of cost per annum as this. I lost £16k in 3 years on my 5 series.

These are an excellent second car.

Pre-heating is not exclusive to electric cars - I have the same feature on my diesel (Peugeot)

You cannot compare depreciation on a 5 series to a Leaf. They are not the same class or cost.
When you buy a BMW you can get deals. Many BMW dealers do deals and you can almost mitigate the first year depreciation. To save more, buy a demonstrator with a 5 year service pack.

£400 loss in one month. Are you bothered saving £400 a year on fuel? Probably not. Hence EV are a compromise not worth having for many. Ultimately, this was my conclusion.

Leaf's depreciate at a higher percentage than BMW and soon become worthless.

My point is, you're comparing apples with pears, not relevant whatsoever.

What is the point of an electric car? To save money (does it after all costs) or some "green" crusade?
The energy to make them is not "green".

Ummm PCP from BMW website 320D on a 24 month PCP and 8000 miles
£5489 down £386 per month
Oh and you better get delivery before April 1st cos your £20 VED is about to disappear

https://offers.bmw.co.uk/finance-offers/result/?offerCode=71b20660-f85e-4dcc-98ac-e23de530092a

This is 6000 miles I accept but the extra 4000 miles will cost you £320 total

Happy to see a BMW PCP for £199 down and £199 a month

Look this is just an interesting deal. For some people it works for others it doesn't. I do sit in my air conditioned box with filtered air, polluting the outside air with particulates and oxides of nitrogen from my Diesel engine and wonder about the effects it has on children, the elderly and asthmatics. For quite a lot of people this works economically and environmentally.

I will rephrase this seen as you really are struggling to grasp this.

Show me a cheaper way of driving a brand new, full leather, sat nav and Bose sound system equipped car...... That is the point a cheap, high quality second car with a lower environmental impact.

This car isn't for everyone (thankfully; if it was then the people panicking about the grid might actually have a point). For some people it will be convenient and save them a decent amount of money. For others it'll be a pain in the butt with a negligible saving.

Oh, and FYI heating, the radio, headlights, windscreen wipers, and other things people come up with, consume an insignificant amount of power in the context of the amount of energy these batteries can store. Turning them off is rather pointless.

​Does the engine of your car have to or n to preheat or is your car plugged in to preheat? don't know just asking.

​have to be running*

Are you talking about a "proper" car or a car that you cannot drive 150 miles without charging? Not really comparing like with like.

SatNav = £10 with Windows phone.

In fact, manufacturing an electric vehicle generates more carbon emissions than building a conventional car, mostly because of its battery.

Cars not in the same class. Soon you will compare an Aston Martin with a Nissan Leaf.

Great if you've another car in the household. Three year old one cost me £99 per month to replace a car that was using more than that in diesel. Also great that when I start it up my kids aren't breathing in fumes. I know the power is generated using fossil fuels but most power stations aren't next to schools, hospitals etc.

"Common sense" it was you who attempted to compare the supposed value of a BMW over that of a Leaf. Yes they don't compare. Yes I'd rather drive a Leaf.

I was making the point: some people buy an electric car and think they save money. Yet when they factor in the depreciation cost they actually lose money. The fuel saving is offset by higher depreciation. If you live in London and have to pay congestion charge an electric car makes sense. For those of us who do not, may find an electric car has effectively zero savings and range issues. If you want to save money, buy a second hand car with warranty as the depreciation will be less than the PCP payments and fuel savings. Eg buy a 3 year old Golf (already lost half its value) from a dealer and the depreciation cost may well be much less than the PCP payments and fuel savings. Change it every 11 months and no range anxiety. If you but to claim to be "green" then it is a different matter.

Stick with PCP for a Leaf!

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/features/motoring/news/14410937.Man_warns_of_electric_vehicle_depreciation_after_losing___15_000_on_Nissan_Leaf_in_18_months/

"Common sense". I think you make some useful points.
One of the reasons that this is such a good deal is that Nissan and its finance company take the hit of depreciation partly by heavily discounting the car and secondly by giving a GFV that means the purchaser need not worry about depreciation.
I also think that used leafs are a fantastic buy at the moment because of depreciation but that's another deal on another day.

This is a deal about a new leaf on a PCP not about BMW's. Electric cars have a limited range so are not for everyone.

Second hand Leaf's seem so cheap. I just wonder if the battery will last and if things go wrong.

I think a Leaf should always be obtained via PCP and never purchased. I wonder if Nissan make any money from the Leaf or whether they are loss leaders.

​Blackpool replaced all it's trams a few years ago after they became too expensive to keep running.

The battery has an 8 year warranty

I think Nissan/Renault/Mitsubishi have decided to trade profit for market share

BMW were said to be making a loss on every i3. Im not sure how much money Tesla is losing. Of course these cars are made in Sunderland -though these particular batteries are made in the US. Buying a car that is made in the U.K. matters to me though it might not to others

I'm pretty sure the i3, Leaf, Zoe, Model S/X are all profitable, at least on a per unit basis. Nobody is going to be making mega-bucks, but that isn't really the point. It's about gaining experience and insight on an emerging trend.

If there's a small loss once R&D is counted, it's likely still worth it as the knowledge abd experience gained could be far more valuable in the long run.

You might want to read that article thoroughly - Nuclear power station of up to 3.8GW, expected to be commissioned in 2024. More recently, Toshiba cast doubt thta they'll carry it through as they look to make a heavy loss on the deal. Moorside project in doubt.

The country should have been making these plans 20 years ago. Electric vehicles still have a long way to come in battery tech (especially range and materials used).

People don't care about the environment half as much as they care about cost. While oil is relatively cheap and electric car battery tech is expensive and impractical for most, with dwindling incentives/tax breaks for buying them, we'll keep buying petrol and diesel powered cars.

Newer direct injection petrol cars put out plenty of soot of their own, it is much finer than diesel soot given out by a non-DPF equipped diesel engined car.

Swings and roundabouts with diesels for pollution - up the combustion temp and you reduce soot generated, increase NOx generated and increase the efficiency of the DPF.Most of the Pre-DPF diesels have relatively low NOx output, but put out lots of soot.

Where are these 'cheap' Leafs? The cheapest are ones where you rent the battery on 'flex' deals, ones where you own the batteries outright are considerably more. Also don't confuse the early models with current ones, they may look similar but a lot of changes have happened under the skin. As for how long the batteries will last that depends on many factors, how the battery was used, what the battery will be used for etc. Batteries are being estimated to have a useful life of around 25 years, not all of which will be in the vehicle but as battery storage for homes and offices once their useful range has depleted for mobile use - once that time is up then they can be recycled and used once again in new batteries.

Nissan website. Leaf's are effectively worthless after 8 years. Nissan do not cover the battery any further. Even a 4 year old Leaf is old technology, hence never buy, just lease and walk away.

According to gridwatch we (@1am) are just running at 27GW so are using less than half the available capacity.

Great car

At the risk of going wildly off topic again....
There are national schemes available for councils to install on street charging points for residential customers. The grants are available for councils rather than individuals but if you don't ask...

https://www.zap-map.com/on-street-charge-point-fund-launched/

That's simply not true, Leafs haven't been around for 8 years so this is pure speculation.

But when they have been please free to send me a few of them for free.

The 24kw battery had a 5 year warranty but outperformed their predictions so Nissan upped the warranty to 8 years for the 30kw.

For someone who called them self "common sense" you have absolutely none.....

anybody want up the claims on how many electric cars the UK can charge at once went from 5 percent to 20 million to 740/760 million miles. any information for there basis would be welcome if there is so much spare capacity why does the government pay some big business to power down incase there was a need for extra capacity I really don't understand this when I checked it seems like if the UK infastructure isn't upgraded quick enough we maybe getting power cuts in next few years.

1kwh currently equates to about 3 miles in a leaf. The problem with UK infrastructure is output is trending downward and usage is trending upwards. Nuclear base load stations are getting toward end of life before any new ones come on line so a shortage is predicted going forward.

I disagree, and so does the DfT. As of their last update (April 2016) 33% of cars were >10 years old (https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/veh02-licensed-cars table VEH0211)

Yes it is speculation by the so called experts. Just look at the residual values.
Try and sell an 8 year old model. Who will want it except you? Technology will have moved on and battery range improved dramatically. Would you buy an 8 year old smart phone?

There are not many advances in fossil fuel cars. But for electric cars it is range that improves dramatically.
The Leaf already looks old and dated in design.
I suspect you have not applied common sense or even read the reports from experts.

I agree depreciation is much faster than fossil fuel due to the speed of evolution. My comment was related to you claiming a 8 year old leaf being worthless.
For one they haven't existed that long as they only launched mid 2010 so it's impossible to predict (may I borrow your time machine?) .
The oldest leaf on autotrader at 2011 with nearly a 100k on the clock is still almost £6k so a long way from "worthless" as you claimed. The cheap Leafs you see are Flex Leafs and do not include the ownership of the battery! These ones do.

Yes the leaf is beginning to age just like any 6 year old car. But say what you want about the leaf it's still the worlds best selling EV and you cannot get a better EV for this kind of money and that's a fact. Even the premium brands like BMW and Mercedes can't match the Leaf for range and its almost a 7 year old car.

This is the ideal way to purchase an EV as after two years it allows you to either return, upgrade or walk away depending on the market etc.

I bought one of these for my wife recently and was so impressed I've just ordered two more for my business.

For someone that claims to be worth £50 an hour you really don't portray yourself as very bright at all.

Just because someone advertises a car on Autotrader for almost £6k it does not mean it is worth this amount. I said Leaf's are effectively worthless and not worthless. You really are not very bright if you do not understand the point.

I suppose you believe if a certain vacuum cleaner has not been use for 25 years so you cannot predict its life!
There is something call projections. If you believe the old Leaf is worth £6k buy it.

Steve Marsh published an update on his 2011 Nissan LEAF in Washington state, which in late 2013 became the first U.S. LEAF to cross 100,000 miles.

As of July 27, 2015, the odometer stood at 141,000 miles, with 5 battery capacity bars lost (7/12 bars is less than 60% capacity) and 160 GID at full charge.

This is probably still the highest mileage LEAF in the US, though because of its fading range, Steve needs to charge midway to his job, charge to full at his job, and then return home while stopping again midway for a charge.

No warranty on battery. Effectively worthless?

To me a car that is valued at £1000 is effectively worthless. To you £1 may not be worthless.
I have a 21 year old Mazda MX3 that is Sorn. It is effectively worthless.

You really are not getting this at all are you? I was merely demonstrating that you are just making up stuff with zero basis or evidence. The example you gave about the highest mileage leaf in the US, I've read that story in the past. That doesn't indicate value, all it does is indicate the type of battery usage that can be achieved. Yes his car will have very little value due to the failing battery, however any small car of that mileage will be worth a similar amount as its engine and gearbox will be failing too.

You're now back tracking on you're "worthless" statement also.

Unless you can substantiate your claims with evidence or an underpinned argument then please stop spouting rubbish.

I could argue that the upcoming "T Charge" in London and other major cities will have the opposite effect and make diesel cars have much heavier depreciation and boost electric car sales.

£50 an hour lol.

You really don't get it do you? People predict residual values. All the experts indicate low residual values.
This is how the industry works. The evidence is only available in projections. Surely, even a poorly educated person understands this. Can you prove high residual values?

Reverse your question. Provide me with one fact that a Leaf will retain comparable value to a petrol car after 8 years . By claiming they will you are making it up. You are spouting rubbish. So you stop spouting rubbish! I too can engage in insults. We can exchange insults for the 8 years if you want. I do not take instructions from you, particularly less intelligent people. Tell your wife what to so. She may listen or be dictated to. She probably did not want a Leaf but you were too tight to buy a proper car.

Even 10 year old Yaris with a list price a fraction of a Leaf is worth more. No wonder your earning are low!

I am not back tracking. I still say an 8 year old Leaf will be effectively worthless. This does not mean zero worth as all cars have scrap value. It will be very difficult to find anyone but you to buy it. The range may just collapse.

Heard of Tesla? They beat the Leaf for range. How about Zoe?

Over to you continue insults, or just "walk away".

I never once insulted you I just said you're assuming far too much and spouting about it. The market is unknown, the entire market is at the mercy of future taxation for both inner city, new car taxation classes and projected fossil fuel prices, all of which favour electric vehicles. Nobody can predict what this will do to the market.

You continue to use irrelevant comparisons I said the leaf has best range/spec for its price, the deal is cheaper and better equipped than a Zoe can be had for (a Zoe has additional battery rent this one does not it works out more expensive currently and is smaller and less equipped in this example) as for the tesla it is around 3 to 4 times the price of this!
That's like saying when the Bugatti Veyron Super Sport with 1184bhp was launched all other cars were worthless, utter rubbish.

I challenge you to find a cheaper, better equipped, longer range car than THIS DEAL until then please do not respond I'm really bored with your opinions as they just that, opinions based upon nothing but speculations.

As for low earnings comments I actually laughed out loud at that, was hilarious. You really do not know a single thing about me. I have never attempted to boast about my earnings like you did maybe I'm on minimum wage, maybe I'm a director you have no idea about me so please stop being a child and accept that the future is unknown. Projections are volatile information especially on technology any investor will tell you that.

Right I'm off to repair the holes in my shoes as apparently I'm poor.......

This is a deal on a new leaf on a pcp. The economics of buying a used one are different and largely misunderstood by the buying public.
You can buy a used 24kwh leaf very cheaply, some of these are still on "flex" the battery lease scheme. You can buy the battery for an amount that depends on age and mileage and this is cheaper apparently for the owner than a dealer but on a 3 year old leaf may be less than £3000.
A new battery costs around £5000 and it seems you cannot put a 30kWh battery in a 24kwh leaf. Presumably the same will apply to the forthcoming 40 kWh (made in Sunderland) and 60kwh batteries. I can't believe that new battery prices will not start to come down.
As a second, very low maintenance second car for city use, buying one for £5000 made a lot of sense (i.e. Tekna 2014 24kwh) but this offer was too tempting and I suspect many punters with shortish city commutes and school runs would do the same. The number of diesel Discoveries and X5s with their engines left running sitting outside schools at home time that have travelled less than 2 miles which could be replaced by one of these is significant.

Battery companies repackage ev batteries as domestic storage devices to use with solar panels or to store off peak electricity. Schemes to use these in networks to match peak demand to put back into the grid are at an early stage and could potentially be useful.

There is an awful lot of ignorance about Evs not least because there are swathes of people who view "top gear" and the "grand tour" as a documentary rather than a comedy programme.

Nobody asked you to reply. Just because your opinion differs does not mean the other person spouts nonsense.
It is insulting. As for £50 an hour, this is not my earnings. I used this as an example of a typical educated professional.
I do not take orders from you. You do not own this site and cannot dictate to others.

Until you can prove the Leaf will retain substantial value after 8 years, don't "spout your nonsense!" Your claims of value are just speculation!

"According to Glass’s – the used car value bible people – A Nissan LEAF E will lose a whopping 66.77 per cent of its value in the first year alone, which means your ‘cheap to run’ LEAF will actually cost you more than £1,000 a month in depreciation."

Other models are likely to be similar.
Read more: http://www.carsuk.net/nissan-leaf-ev-loses-two-thirds-of-its-value-in-first-12-months/#ixzz4Zb6vgjTR

I was discussing purchasing a Leaf was an expensive option due to high depreciation and very low residual values. I did not say this PCP was a bad deal. You just do not get it.

I hope you can afford to repair your shoes. You may find a new cheap pair is lower cost than a repair. A bit like an old Leaf.

I agree with the Ignorance comment and only time will tell what the future holds but I do think the whole EV market will be "forced" by future taxation and fossil fuel prices. I know in and around London many dealers are refusing to take older diesel cars based upon nothing but the proposal of the T-Charge as this would mean a non DPF diesel would cost £15 A DAY to enter inner city London, if this proposal goes through and is rolled out to other polluted cities as predicted this will adversely affect diesel resale value, which in turn will boost resale of both electric (zero cost) and petrol (£5 congestion charge).

I have never seen a leaf at the prices you have quoted mind and a "flex" version is a bit of an oddity as you don't own all of it you lease the battery on top.

I personally have stuck with PCP for the wife's leaf and the two on order for my business as it's the most strategic way to buy.

Ah backtracking on your earnings now too, responded with irrelevance about a set depreciation PCP deal again.

Now on ignore, enjoy.

Spouting your nonsense again. Provide the quote where I actually stated £50/hour was my income.
I made a generalised statement what a typical profession person may say.

You really cannot understand statements or analyse simple data. Go and read Glasses Guide on Nissan Leaf residuals.

You said so right here.

I will not enter into this anymore I have blocked you.

This does not state "I earn £50 an hour". Can you see the words "I earn £50 an hour?"

I was postulating the typical thoughts of a professional and why they would consider the Leaf would not save money.

Please go to school to understand context.

All these people are deluded regarding depreciation in your little world.
http://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/nissan-leaf-tekna-new-car-with-37-off-list-price-20950-carwow-2624605#post30118028

Common sense. You don't have to "postulate". I am a professional. I have a large premium SUV for long distances. I have a diesel MINI for city use. That is being replaced with a car on this deal on a PCP-the deal that this thread is actually about.

Thanks for this OP - it's got me a great deal in branch today - £199 deposit, £198pm for 24 months, 8k miles, gap insurance, smart insurance, 1 year car insurance and 2 years servicing

Which branch is that? I couldn't get it matched at West London.

Wakefield, Harrats Nissan. Ring and ask for Dave Wright - he sorted my deal out and if you look on my post about my deal he's sorted some other people out too. He's put so many through though that he's having to check tomorrow with Nissan whether they can still offer it, and if they can offer the insurance a servicing.

I find it amusing that people buy premium cars and then buy an electric car to save hardly £1000 a year (the motivation is to save money). When someone buys an expensive car, surely they do not worry about the old thousand pounds. They lose many thousands in depreciation from their premium cars.

I can understand the issue of those hit by daily congestion cars in London, but other places? If one needs to save £1000 why do they buy premium cars. A Leaf isn't a nice looking car, isn't premium and is really outdated, unlike a Tesla.

the savings can be huge if you are prepared to make some effort, for example many place have charge for free, so a little planning and one would never have to pay for electric.

Common sense you've put up 1 deal on this site and made 1848 comments on other people's deals. Get back under your bridge. All the best.

Given most people how buy an electric car are probably going to do around 10,000 miles max a year the savings are never going to be more than £100 a month max? If they only do 5,000 miles then it's £50 a month.

You could just buy something like an C1/Aygo/Twingo for £100 per and never have any hassle worrying about ever charging the car or range anxiety. The spec on the Leaf might be better but if you are only doing 10/20 miles a day does it really make much difference?

Really? In my diesel I do not use even £800 a year on fuel and pay £20 vehicle excise duty.
What would I save? c£800 maximum. Hardly huge when I have zero range anxiety and car that can be used on all my journeys. Sorry, I do not see the massive savings as I do not live in London have and no effort to keep charging, just a fuel station once a month.

Ah.. HUKDeals is not just about posting deals. It is also about discussing the deals. I thought you would know this. Go back to your bubble!

of course these are not for everyone, but another plus point is their reliability, they are rock solid, when my clutch went in my diesel it cost me £750...normal engines will break a lot more than these electric ones.... but you either like them or you dont...

oh and we all know the Government is about to **** over diesel drivers in a big way...Chris Grayling just this week said diesel drivers need to have a big think.... you are about to be screwed over from a great height, I expect a levy just on diesel fuel

I never had a clutch "go" in an automatic (I have only ever driven automatics). I have never had a repair costing even £500 in a car. Where is the actual evidence electric cars will break down less. They depreciate more!

Gordon "conartist" Brown told people to buy a diesel, so I did and pay £20 excise duty. I cannot see such cars being outlawed. Political suicide.

I do not dislike electric cars. In my case I see no massive savings and the range is not sufficient. The hassle of charging daily, finding a charging point not being used etc is also not worth the saving for me. Give me a real life 250 mile range, then it's an option.

Does this mean children will not learn to drive a manual as electric cars are effectively automatic? I passed a test on a manual and never drove once thereafter. Seemed rather backward to me!

over 90% in driver power for reliability http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/nissan/leaf/reliability

and you are correct they depreciate faster than a rock in water, a 3 year old one can be had for £11k easily, whether you like it or not Diesels are now considered bad by the Government, I agee with you Brown screwed us all over by promoting diesel, that has now changed though (just look at London, you are stuffed if you own a diesel now in London) 50% of sales are diesel, what the government does I have no idea, but they have fired the warning shots, they are coming, it just depends on what measures they take...

in a strange way though Brexit may change things if the Government no longer has to stick to EU pollution rules

Not sure there's any proof the Government itself is anti diesel just a Government Minster suggesting city dwellers should think twice about buying a diesel, but not really sure what that means as the only way diesel owners could be penalised is by all towns imposing congestion charges on diesel engined cars but there's no signs of that happening at perhaps. Gayling thinks London is the only "city" in the UK!

Unfortunately as soon as your proof appears the bottom will fall out of the older diesel market. The only glimmer of hope for people with older diesels i.e. Pre 2007 is a rumoured diesel scrappage scheme which is rumoured to consist of up to 3k for the car and up to 5k for the replacement. I suspect this will replace the electric grant.
There is talk of measures in several cities across the country e.g. Nottingham and Southampton and some others.
There's a budget on March the 8th....

With all the dpf filter issues for people who only run diesels in cities anyway it may become self policing :smiley: