Stumbled across this glitch/mistake in their T & C's.
Pc World/Curry's currently have a Trade in Offer on this Samsung Galaxy Tab A6....you can Trade in some old/broken tablets and receive the money off voucher for a new Samsung tablet.
The mistake they've made is they don't state how many u can trade in against a Tablet.
So for example...they'll pay £50 for "All Other Tablets", working and non working ...so you can trade 5 x cheap broken Chinese tablets worth nothing for £250 and use that voucher to purchase the new tablet.
So I did....and they did accept it as it didn't state otherwise in their T & C's.
Tested working as of yesterday :smiley: Can provide photos if needed.
Top comments
backinstock
28 Mar 1723#1
I have some paracetamol tablets that don't work. Well, according to my wife, they don't clear her headache on a Friday night!
Would this work as part of the 'glitch'?
bilal101
30 Mar 173#82
ok guys it does work, you can use multiple e vouchers online for home delivery, I have 3 Samsung tablets coming tomorrow, at a total cost of 0.98pence to me. My brother has a further two arriving for him
(he has a laptop repair shop so had a graveyard of tablets to sift through)
ar2rar2r
29 Mar 173#50
I've done it ! :smile::D: PC World staff EXTREMELY helpful for once. Had to jiggle about with refunds and stuff but managed to get a Free tablet and 20 quid on a Gift Card :smile::D So happy . Love you all :smiley:
All comments (112)
backinstock
28 Mar 1723#1
I have some paracetamol tablets that don't work. Well, according to my wife, they don't clear her headache on a Friday night!
Would this work as part of the 'glitch'?
ihatebingo
28 Mar 171#2
lolololololol
HasnainMajeed
28 Mar 171#3
How much did you get in trade in value? Says maximum £100
phoenix6121982 to HasnainMajeed
28 Mar 17#4
I was greedy. I had 20 x tablets so managed to bag myself 4 new tablets. (tech repairer/old broken useless tablets)
phoenix6121982
28 Mar 17#5
Also the £100 trade in doesn't work as an Ipad MINI 3 WiFi working they'll give u £155 off :smiley:
I can't find an A6 version on the website, and this one T&C states it has to be working...
Do you think I could trade in an old hudl?
Thanks
daisyb212
28 Mar 17#7
OK I've read the post twice more and I think I get it now.. But u can't find the T&Cs from your image. Do you have the link pls? Thanks v much
daisyb212
28 Mar 17#8
Found it. Doh. Sorry and thanks
phoenix6121982
28 Mar 17#9
Yes that's the one.
If u click
Trade in any tablet & get up to £100 off this product More info
and then click the "click here for our tablet trade in values"
scroll to bottom and it'll show bottom left
"all other tablets £50 working and non working"
Interesting. I will go and have a dig through my 'projects' cupboard in the morning. I'm sure I've got 4 dead Google Nexus 7's in there...
Trending
28 Mar 17#13
Sorry can you please tell me where I can buy tablets for £20. I don't mean paracetamol :laughing:
Trending
28 Mar 171#14
and it says now £100 off. so you can't get £250 anymore
phoenix6121982 to Trending
28 Mar 17#17
The table of prices shows higher vouchers and doesn't stipulate how many tablets u can trade in against a new one.
Example. I traded 1 x Ipad mini 3 16gb wifi worth £155 and 2 x broken tablets worth £50 each total of £255.
Used these to buy another one.
Cos they don't state how many u can trade u free to use as many as u like.
finknottle
28 Mar 17#15
Forgive me if I'm missing something but surely that doesn't quite answer the question - it says you can get up to £100 off the tablet. Surely that would leave you paying £129.99 even if you traded in two old tablets?
phoenix6121982
28 Mar 17#16
I traded 5 x broken Chinese/no named tablets which were £50 each (5x50 = £250). Used those vouchers against a new Tablet at £229 so it ended up not costing anything
finknottle
28 Mar 172#18
Yup, I get that but it says on the page you can get a maximum of £100 off. Or did it not say that at the time?
JustExtreme
28 Mar 17#19
Nice
phoenix6121982
28 Mar 17#20
It did. Issue is they are giving more in value then the maximum of £100. Like the Ipad Mini 3 16gb wifi is £155 ...which has to be used against the new tablet.
rooney10
28 Mar 17#21
From 1st March 2017 until 31st March 2017, we are offering
up to £100 off a new Samsung Galaxy Tab A 10.1” tablet,
when you trade in any tablet.
Sounds like any tablet to me , not any tablets. Potential problem , no ? I wouldn't expect this to run smoothly for everyone :wink:
phoenix6121982
28 Mar 17#22
Issue was they giving well over £100 Trade in Value on some of the used tablets. So u can only use that voucher against the New one. You can't spend it on anything else.
Jimdabod
28 Mar 17#23
I agree, however I do think op has a very good case
imranio
29 Mar 17#24
Theres a list of tablets in the terms and conditions you can use, OP are you saying you can use ANY? Even tablets on that list?
phoenix6121982 to imranio
29 Mar 17#28
any working or non working tablet. :smiley:
Trending
29 Mar 17#25
which store you went to?
phoenix6121982 to Trending
29 Mar 17#29
Ipswich.
Midge
29 Mar 171#26
Lol! . . . I can see what you're saying . . . And I Like It . . . :sunglasses:
Let the fun and games begin, wonder if I can find those two tablets in the bedroom without waking the boss up. :smile:
Ok may have to wait till the morning!
mmk1125
29 Mar 171#27
got a working iPad 2 with a cracked screen, is that considered working or non working?
phoenix6121982 to mmk1125
29 Mar 17#30
Non working as damaged
elditig
29 Mar 17#31
It would be non-working if you took it in with the battery flat.... I doubt they would try to charge it up to prove it does work!
ar2rar2rar2r
29 Mar 171#32
Hi. Did you trade it in in store and bought online or did you buy it in store. Was it just 1 e voucher for the whole amount ?? Thanks
rooney10 to ar2rar2rar2r
29 Mar 17#35
This is a store only offer.
phoenix6121982 to ar2rar2rar2r
29 Mar 17#37
Was in store. I used mostly broken Chinese tablets so received £50 evoucher per tablet. They then used those against the purchase of a new one.
rooney10
29 Mar 171#33
The amount given for your Trade In is not in question and I understand your voucher can only be used towards the purchase of a new a6 Tab .
However , its states that you can trade in a 'tablet' not 'tablets' so potentially this could be reason to refuse whether that be on redeeming (multiple vouchers not being accepted perhaps) or upon trade in. Although you could always get several people to go in to obtain multiple vouchers so it is quite possible that they will use their terms and conditions to refuse the use of multiple vouchers upon redemption ... interesting to see more feedback on this.
It does sound like you got lucky though OP and if you don't try you don't get so good luck guys :wink:
I didn't have any broken tablets to trade-in so would have to buy them , not taking the risk personally as I can see this being refused at most stores.
rooney10
29 Mar 17#34
Where is that in the terms and conditions ?
Cosmetic damage does not mean the item is broken. My car has a chipped windscreen , is my car broken too then ?
phoenix6121982
29 Mar 17#36
When they check tablet they have an on screen checklist which they need to tick if any visible damage like broken or cracked screens etc. Usual wear and tear is accepted
phoenix6121982
29 Mar 17#38
When I spoke to the in store manager and asked about the amount u can trade he agreed it didn't state how many per customer can be traded. Without that clause in their T & C's u can use multiples against 1 transaction
MacPhisto
29 Mar 172#39
Hmm, think their T&C's are a bit flawed, clearly states up to £100 off Samsung A 10.1" which they're selling for £229.99 but on the trade-in table from the T&C's they'll give £418 on an iPad Pro 256gb :confused:
rooney10
29 Mar 171#40
That particular manager at that particular store , others may find a different response from managers at different stores is all I am saying. Like I said , the terms may not specifically state that you cannot trade in multiple items but throughout the terms and conditions they refer to a single trade item/product , never multiples. :wink:
Also , their terms do not state that if there is cosmetic damage then the tablet would be treated as broken but like you said , there is a checklist on their screens which they have to select which determines the amount that you would receive. This is not in their terms and conditions either so it does sound to me like they have their own set of rules regarding this and it cannot be assumed that what you got is what everybody will get.
If I had broken tablets available to trade-in I would definitely give this a go for the risk of petrol money to my local store but I wouldn't risk buying broken tablets to try and get this :wink:
redjamie
29 Mar 17#41
will these work with old laptops or just tabs
sul
29 Mar 17#42
what do the terms and conditions say? (the small print that's usually worth reading as it usually contains the full details of what you need to know)
phoenix6121982
29 Mar 17#43
just tablets
neilbhatia
29 Mar 17#44
has anyone else tried this, would be nice to get rid of blackberry playbook and hudl 1
LadZinc
29 Mar 17#45
It says max discount of 100 gbp tho? so how did u use more than 100 on one tablet? or did they just give you regular gift cards which u spent on the tablet?
rooney10
29 Mar 17#46
Catch up ..... This has been covered already in this thread and we are only on the 2nd page :wink:
rooney10
29 Mar 17#47
Nobody else has tried this and posted any feedback on here as yet , just the Op so far :wink:
moorolfc
29 Mar 17#48
OK. Just done this. Traded in an old slow and buggy nexus 7 and a non working Linx 10. £50 each so got the Samsung for £130 which I am very pleased with, as was about to spend £600 on a new s3 which would have been a waste as I only use tablets for surfing and a few apps.
You need to be careful when you trade the tablets in. Tell them that they are valued at £50 working or not. It is also vital you ask them to issue the credit onto non-promo gift cards as only one promo card can be used per Samsung tablet. Mine were issued on two promo cards, and I spent half an hour waiting before the admittedly cool dudes in PCWorld found a work around -buying a tab with one of the discount cards then reissuing a refund onto a non promo card. I then used one promo and one non promo card for my £100 off.
I did ask if the £100 was the maximum value per trade in tablet, or the maximum amount off the Samsung and they weren't sure. I think the former, since their system definitely had instructions to the effect of "if a customer is trading in more than one tablet then issue non promo gift cards as only one promo gift card can be used per purchase".
phoenix6121982
29 Mar 17#49
Glad it worked for u :smiley:
ar2rar2r
29 Mar 173#50
I've done it ! :smile::D: PC World staff EXTREMELY helpful for once. Had to jiggle about with refunds and stuff but managed to get a Free tablet and 20 quid on a Gift Card :smile::D So happy . Love you all :smiley:
offsider
29 Mar 17#51
Do you need to bring chargers with the tablets for the trade in? I would like to trade in 5 but I am not sure they will take all of them.
Sparkiegirl
29 Mar 17#52
I like the sound of this I have 4 broken hudls in the loft. Guess I can only give it a go :-)
moorolfc
29 Mar 17#53
Neither of mine had chargers. They put the tablets in envelopes to send off without chargers/accessories in any case.
moorolfc
29 Mar 17#54
Thank-you.
offsider
29 Mar 17#55
Thank you moorofc.
Midge
29 Mar 17#56
Does a Nook Colour count as a tablet? have a pair of those . . .
phoenix6121982
29 Mar 171#57
Yes. I used 2 x Nooks. and couple those kindle ereader things
I suppose a phablet wouldn't count. What minimum size to be accepted? Is it the usual 7 inches to be satisfied...
Sparkiegirl
29 Mar 17#60
Wouldn't do it for me As they said it states a tablet on the list. Would only give me the £100 for 2 tablets as a good will gesture. Never mind worth a go :-)
reps91
29 Mar 17#61
I took 3 tablets to trade in but they said they would only let me trade in 1 tablet per person
rooney10
29 Mar 17#62
As I suspected this is completely hit and miss , well done for those that got them :wink:
galene
29 Mar 17#63
didn't work in Bracknell, they already had someone asking and they checked it can be only one voucher per purchase. You can trade in as many as you want but need to use it for separate transactions I was told.
redzarf
29 Mar 17#64
I tried earlier (in Chorley), and one of you lot had already been in trying it with 3 tablets! (reps91?) They said they'd emailed HQ to ask if they're allowed, and that I should come back tomorrow to find out (I'm guessing it'll be a 'no')
danman10
30 Mar 17#65
What store was this?
phoenix6121982
30 Mar 17#66
They can trade 1 x evoucher and then the other 4 they can change to gift cards of same value and then can use all 5 against the purchase.
rooney10
30 Mar 17#67
As previously stated those that got them got lucky , as soon as this is raised as an issue (and it was always going to be) then Head office will instruct all stores to only allow 1 trade-in voucher per tablet.
We already know that the e vouchers can be changed to giftcards by just returning the tablet for a refund in which the e voucher element would be refunded onto a giftcard. However this would need to be done 3 times to allow a £200 discount (4 trade-ins) , now that is an entirely possible workaround but please bear in mind some stores will only allow 1 trade in per person so this makes the workaround a little more difficult :wink:
PS. All this needs to be done by end of play tomorrow when the offer ends.
weew2016
30 Mar 17#68
I've went to the store in Ipswich the manager refused to trade for minimum £50 for non working tablets and he was surprised about the list like he never knew about it
So just waisted my trip and patrol
weew2016
30 Mar 17#69
Don't waiste your time, they just won't reply. The same happen to me and no response till today
bilal101
30 Mar 17#70
I've traded in 15 tablets so far going to be trading in another 15 later once I've taken them out the laptop repair shop I have
micky4rl
30 Mar 171#71
Wow!!! I just got the tablet for £79.99 having paid £150 with the e-voucher from 3 trade-ins. I must admit it was tough and I had to be calm, persuasive and let the lovely ladies behind the till make several phone calls and several checks.
I happy to have got the tablet.
micky4rl
30 Mar 17#72
Before you risk too much, try with 3 trade-ins first and see if they will honour the evoucher. It wasn't easy and I will admit that.
bilal101
30 Mar 17#73
I found a much easier way if use the E vouchers online and buy the tablet for home delivery you can stack up to 5 vouchers at a time
bilal101
30 Mar 17#74
I'm going to keep them happy by letting the staff member keep 5 of the trade in tablets for him self
Trending
30 Mar 17#75
which store you went to?
DAVE3652
30 Mar 17#76
So, in theory I could go to several stores today and trade in one tablet at each one, then id have enough evouchers , so then I could order for home delivery and stack the evouchers, is that correct?
Straycat1967
30 Mar 17#77
Very good question! but who knows the answer! :smiley:
bilal101
30 Mar 17#78
Comment
Yes, and the duty is hat the vouchers have 24month expiry
Straycat1967
30 Mar 17#79
In theory yes re the expiry but don't they have to be used and redeemed on this tablet only, so the 24 months would be irrelevant?
DAVE3652
30 Mar 17#80
Wish I was 100% certain this would work, has anyone got a screen capture of the vouchers added to a order which shows the voucher amount taken of the total to pay? Bilal101?
micky4rl
30 Mar 17#81
Yes Dave I have the screen capture to send if I know how to upload pics on this platform.
bilal101
30 Mar 173#82
ok guys it does work, you can use multiple e vouchers online for home delivery, I have 3 Samsung tablets coming tomorrow, at a total cost of 0.98pence to me. My brother has a further two arriving for him
(he has a laptop repair shop so had a graveyard of tablets to sift through)
karlie88 to bilal101
30 Mar 17#83
Can the £50 e-vouchers be used on any product on their website?
DAVE3652 to bilal101
30 Mar 17#84
Wish there were enough curry's /pcworlds nearby me, only two though.. So can't get enough evouchers to do it.. Cracking deal for those that can though.
ssc1
30 Mar 17#85
expired. says monies off software.
sunriser to ssc1
30 Mar 17#88
Has anyone traded in more than one at a time?
Also, is it right that this runs until tomorrow?
DAVE3652
30 Mar 17#86
Nobody out of the kindness of their heart want to donate some evouchers ? God loves a trier!
bilal101 to DAVE3652
30 Mar 171#87
nope, strictly against this tablet in black or white option
phoenix6121982
30 Mar 171#89
Ends tomorrow. I traded in 20.
kattyk to phoenix6121982
30 Mar 17#90
Did you then purchase the Samsung tablets or have you just collected the vouchers?. Store accepted my four trade ins but when they tried to put through the Samsung using the vouchers it would only accept one?
offsider
30 Mar 17#91
I went to the store but they said each customer can only trade in one tablet :disappointed:
kattyk
30 Mar 17#92
Did the three trade ins go on one e voucher or separate vouchers?
kattyk to kattyk
30 Mar 17#94
Thanks :smiley:
bilal101
30 Mar 171#93
Comment
I have a total of 5 tablets arriving to my home address tomorrow, all free as you can imagine I had a lot of old tablets to trade in
You have to use 5 vouchers on each order online for delivery, not collect in store
micky4rl
30 Mar 17#95
@KattyK. To be honest I had the same issue re: one promo voucher per transaction but I left the store and went to another and thankfully I met more helpful staff who took every steps they could to honour the vouchers as it doesn't state on the terms and conditions how many you can use in a single purchase. Try another store or order them online as the other gentleman above said.
Good luck
kattyk
30 Mar 171#96
Thanks for reply micky4rl. The staff were all extremely helpful and tried ways round the system and contacted support but couldn't get passed the system only accepting one. Eventually they took two tablets and put through one voucher and a £50 manager's discount. Was in store for an hour. Have a few more tablets so like you said I might try an online order. Appreciate your reply :smiley:
danman10
30 Mar 17#97
anyone tried this at tamworth or coventry?
sunriser to danman10
30 Mar 17#98
Just come out of staples corner branch. They wouldn't give me a voucher to take away, only to use the and then.
Will have to try another branch tomorrow.
russellx
30 Mar 17#99
Hi sunriser - at Staples Corner were they not going to let you trade in multiple tablets at the same time? Or were they not going to let you apply multiple vouchers against the purchase of a single new tablet?
Would it have been possible to use the vouchers and buy the new tablet online whilst still in-store?
675tyg
30 Mar 17#100
Expired. Terms and conditions have now been updated. :disappointed:
MR1123
30 Mar 17#101
Well done op and those who got it, I'm too lazy to try but still reading posts :smile:
sunriser
30 Mar 17#102
One trade in per tablet to buy.
sunriser
30 Mar 17#103
Has anyone traded in tablets with cracked screens?
Straycat1967
30 Mar 17#104
In bold, is this the update of the T&C's to stop multiple vouchers being used or was this on the document earlier too?
9. The e-gift card may be used as part or full payment in a Currys or PC World store. Maximum of one trade in gift card can
be redeemed per transaction. There may be restrictions on the items against which the e-gift card may be redeemed,
where this is the case you will be informed in advance and the e-gift card will specify the restriction.
kattyk
30 Mar 17#105
Yes they have updated. I took a screen print of the t & c and just checked 9. Not in the original. Thanks OP as I did get one for £129.
bilal101 to kattyk
31 Mar 171#110
4 out of my 5 new tablets arrived at dads house so far, I traded in a mixture of working and non working 24 old tablets in total
kattyk
30 Mar 17#106
Yes they updated.
sul
30 Mar 17#107
didn't take advantage of this but thanks for posting OP
micky4rl
31 Mar 171#108
They wouldn't take my son's tablet with cracked screen as trade-in but all other's were fine.
sunriser
31 Mar 17#109
Trade in any tablet & get up to £100 off this product
Trade in available in store and for Reserve and Collect orders only. Not available for Home Delivery orders.
Now showing as this on the website.
sunriser
31 Mar 17#111
Well done to you and others who managed to get this
bilal101
31 Mar 17#112
Comment
You can still trade in old tablets inc cracked screens but they've changed the terms so only one voucher per transaction.
Now you can choose tonne really cheeky and return your unused brand new tablet in order to get a refund onto a standard gift card!!
I could end up with a free iPad Pro or a new tv etc etc
Opening post
Pc World/Curry's currently have a Trade in Offer on this Samsung Galaxy Tab A6....you can Trade in some old/broken tablets and receive the money off voucher for a new Samsung tablet.
The mistake they've made is they don't state how many u can trade in against a Tablet.
So for example...they'll pay £50 for "All Other Tablets", working and non working ...so you can trade 5 x cheap broken Chinese tablets worth nothing for £250 and use that voucher to purchase the new tablet.
So I did....and they did accept it as it didn't state otherwise in their T & C's.
Tested working as of yesterday :smiley: Can provide photos if needed.
Top comments
Would this work as part of the 'glitch'?
(he has a laptop repair shop so had a graveyard of tablets to sift through)
All comments (112)
Would this work as part of the 'glitch'?
http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/computing/tablets-and-ereaders/tablets/samsung-galaxy-tab-a-10-1-tablet-16-gb-black-10148587-pdt.html
I can't find an A6 version on the website, and this one T&C states it has to be working...
Do you think I could trade in an old hudl?
Thanks
If u click
Trade in any tablet & get up to £100 off this product More info
and then click the "click here for our tablet trade in values"
scroll to bottom and it'll show bottom left
"all other tablets £50 working and non working"
Yes I used a broken Hudl 2.
http://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/kidde-fire-extinguisher-14-99-prime-19-74-non-prime-amazon-2526468
Example. I traded 1 x Ipad mini 3 16gb wifi worth £155 and 2 x broken tablets worth £50 each total of £255.
Used these to buy another one.
Cos they don't state how many u can trade u free to use as many as u like.
up to £100 off a new Samsung Galaxy Tab A 10.1” tablet,
when you trade in any tablet.
Sounds like any tablet to me , not any tablets. Potential problem , no ? I wouldn't expect this to run smoothly for everyone :wink:
Let the fun and games begin, wonder if I can find those two tablets in the bedroom without waking the boss up. :smile:
Ok may have to wait till the morning!
However , its states that you can trade in a 'tablet' not 'tablets' so potentially this could be reason to refuse whether that be on redeeming (multiple vouchers not being accepted perhaps) or upon trade in. Although you could always get several people to go in to obtain multiple vouchers so it is quite possible that they will use their terms and conditions to refuse the use of multiple vouchers upon redemption ... interesting to see more feedback on this.
It does sound like you got lucky though OP and if you don't try you don't get so good luck guys :wink:
I didn't have any broken tablets to trade-in so would have to buy them , not taking the risk personally as I can see this being refused at most stores.
Cosmetic damage does not mean the item is broken. My car has a chipped windscreen , is my car broken too then ?
Also , their terms do not state that if there is cosmetic damage then the tablet would be treated as broken but like you said , there is a checklist on their screens which they have to select which determines the amount that you would receive. This is not in their terms and conditions either so it does sound to me like they have their own set of rules regarding this and it cannot be assumed that what you got is what everybody will get.
If I had broken tablets available to trade-in I would definitely give this a go for the risk of petrol money to my local store but I wouldn't risk buying broken tablets to try and get this :wink:
You need to be careful when you trade the tablets in. Tell them that they are valued at £50 working or not. It is also vital you ask them to issue the credit onto non-promo gift cards as only one promo card can be used per Samsung tablet. Mine were issued on two promo cards, and I spent half an hour waiting before the admittedly cool dudes in PCWorld found a work around -buying a tab with one of the discount cards then reissuing a refund onto a non promo card. I then used one promo and one non promo card for my £100 off.
I did ask if the £100 was the maximum value per trade in tablet, or the maximum amount off the Samsung and they weren't sure. I think the former, since their system definitely had instructions to the effect of "if a customer is trading in more than one tablet then issue non promo gift cards as only one promo gift card can be used per purchase".
We already know that the e vouchers can be changed to giftcards by just returning the tablet for a refund in which the e voucher element would be refunded onto a giftcard. However this would need to be done 3 times to allow a £200 discount (4 trade-ins) , now that is an entirely possible workaround but please bear in mind some stores will only allow 1 trade in per person so this makes the workaround a little more difficult :wink:
PS. All this needs to be done by end of play tomorrow when the offer ends.
So just waisted my trip and patrol
I happy to have got the tablet.
Yes, and the duty is hat the vouchers have 24month expiry
(he has a laptop repair shop so had a graveyard of tablets to sift through)
Also, is it right that this runs until tomorrow?
I have a total of 5 tablets arriving to my home address tomorrow, all free as you can imagine I had a lot of old tablets to trade in
You have to use 5 vouchers on each order online for delivery, not collect in store
Good luck
Will have to try another branch tomorrow.
Would it have been possible to use the vouchers and buy the new tablet online whilst still in-store?
:disappointed:
9. The e-gift card may be used as part or full payment in a Currys or PC World store. Maximum of one trade in gift card can
be redeemed per transaction. There may be restrictions on the items against which the e-gift card may be redeemed,
where this is the case you will be informed in advance and the e-gift card will specify the restriction.
Trade in available in store and for Reserve and Collect orders only. Not available for Home Delivery orders.
Now showing as this on the website.
You can still trade in old tablets inc cracked screens but they've changed the terms so only one voucher per transaction.
Now you can choose tonne really cheeky and return your unused brand new tablet in order to get a refund onto a standard gift card!!
I could end up with a free iPad Pro or a new tv etc etc