Ridiculous reason to vote cold.
The best turntables ever made are belt driven (Roksan, Linn, Pink Triangle etc etc) all of the sonically blow the Technics out of the water.

Nothing wrong with belt drive... unless of course you are DJ (like yourself?).... a Technics DJ deck would be over kill for what I want and look a bit rubbish with all my AV stuff. Audio Technica do a nice direct drive deck that is well rated and can be bought for less than £200.

Direct drive is only really important if you're DJing and want to scratch - it allows the platter to get back to normal speed very quickly. For the best quality sound belt driven is usually better as it isolates the platter from motor noise.

Heat added because this is a good price for this product.

I considered this turntable and ended up buying a Flexson VinylPlay as that's basically a Rega RP1, with the upgraded 24V motor and decent USB/phono stage built in (which I needed).

SevenOaks now selling that for £199 which is an absolute steal:
http://www.sevenoakssoundandvision.co.uk/p-12354-flx-vinylplay-wht.aspx?gclid=CjwKEAjw_7y4BRDykp3Hjqyt_y0SJACome3TTljqV7yO_3GV-ehM-dcwukiN1sMBeUcshC75Ew16TBoCj0rw_wcB

Not meaning to resurrect an old deal but for those that were interested at the time but didn't buy you can now get the same turntable cheaper from Richer Sounds.... see HERE!

It's back at £200 again for anyone that's interested...

http://clicks.richersoundsvip.com/social/s_enc/kyA8VoKippjbp5BTnuteG2iUlWElcPBWTH4b3epxsoY.

​Yep! I've got a pair of technics for dj use and they are awesome decks. I've also got a Sony belt drive deck which i listen to in the living room. You're comments are spot on

For anyone still interested in a similar turntable, the Pioneer version of this has gone down to £235 on Amazon, where as this Denon is now back to £300 from Richer Sounds.

Gotta love the vinyl...

Now with the Ortofon 2m Red cartridge....

I'm not spending any more cash now!!!

​by the way the leads arrived and they seem to help remove some of the background noise when the volume is up high, might just be my ears but they seem to have boosted the bass as well.

Same as Dual DT 400 but with addition of USB

I think the TEAC is out of budget for me. I can get the Pro-Ject for £160ish and the Rega £180. Not sure if I should spend the extra money on the denon

Yeah it is difficult... I hadn't even considered the Teac when I went into the store, having looked at reviews I had also changed my mind on the Denon and the Flexson Vinylplay was looking like the favourite at £199. When I go there they only had a open box Flexson and it looked OK although the fact you had to manual change the speed by moving the belt onto a different spindle was a bit of a pain.

I also limited space on my AV/TV stand for the turntable so I found the Denon was also a bit bigger than the Teac. The Teac just looked better in the flesh, better finish, better materials (the cherry one looks very nice but wouldn't match my equipment). The clincher was when the Manager (unprompted) said he would reduce the price to £249.... I haven't been able to find it cheaper elsewhere since.

I did take a bit of a chance but reviews seem very good indeed...here is a random one... http://hearthemusic.us/teac-tn-300-turntable-review/

I've spent another £150 now upgrading the preamp, cartridge and leads.... so that's it now.... I'm definitely not spending any more money, except on the vinyl.

If like me you've been away from vinyl for sometime and have got used to not only the convenience of CD but the immediacy of MP3/streaming then you are in for a nice surprise. I've really enjoyed taking my albums out of their case, looking at them, carefully placing them on the turntable, starting it up, placing the stylus, hearing those first pops and then the music. What was once a major hassle and what I saw as a flaw, but I have actually missed all those things and now I can be nostalgic again.

Just read some more reviews, said that the Denon is automatic and it is not as good ? and not sure about the quality of the preamp, might just get a t-amp instead. Heard somthing good about the Project Essentials too, with a good cartridge that comes with the pack. Still don't know which one i should get.

I think if you do some research that the Denon is infact a Rega with an uprated motor and tuner preamp built in... it doesn't have USB and I thought I might need that, so I was guided towards the Teac that admittedly appeared better looking and perhaps finished nicer. The Denon has lots of useful features though and the fact that it is fully automatic is handy but I did notice the buttons seemed a bit flimsy.

To be honest I probably would have been more than happy with the Denon but I'm just enjoying the whole vinyl revisited thing.

As mentioned I'm waiting for the Ortofon but I have rigged up the Cambridge 551P Preamp.... still with rubbish phono leads though....

First impression... slightly increased output.... not the 50% I had hoped for.... more like 15-20% so I'm still having to crank up the volume at which point I am getting some light speaker hiss, but it's not as bad and that could in part be due to the phono cables or even the basic speaker wires I am still using.

Sound is nice and clear, good punchy bass but otherwise quite difficult for my ears to tell much difference. My daughter playing a Fallout Boy album immediately said she could hear the difference, she said it was much clearer and I think she may be right as the sound separation at higher frequencies does seem very good.

I very happy with the setup overall, hopefully the Ortofon and leads will be the icing on the cake.

Yes - these things are always complicated which is why I was pleased with how good it sounded off the bat with just a cheap phono cable (I might invest in the one you linked to) into the back of my Pioneer AV amp. I have a similar set up but smallish Wharfdale fronts which can't really help.

I'd be interested to hear how the new Ortofon sounds.

Which will be better this or the Rega RP1 ？

Some more info on Teac upgrades... http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=82540

Phew it's all very complicated isn't it.... at least with digital 0's and 1's it's either on or off and nothing in between :smiley:

My Amp is a Sony STR1050 AV, it's a nice amp and powerful, roughly 150watts RMS I think.... and I'm running it into some fairly large JBL Northbridge E80 front speakers, for the centre speaker I have a Monitor Audio MR1, surrounds are Wharfedale Diamond 9, finally I have an old Onkyo Subwoofer.

The system overall (amp, speakers etc..) was about £500-£600 and I'm very happy with it when it comes to all my digital media, Blurays etc... First impressions with the Teac were not good..... set to standard stereo, minimal equalisation, the turntable sound murky/muddy and had barely any bass. I was having to put the volume up to 50-60 to get to a stage where the volume was loud enough to "enjoy".....

I tried some of the presets on the Amp and found that Prologic PII made a huge difference... also all the speakers were then in use (which I like) and the bass was restored with the help of the Sub. Still the volume was faily low relative to other inputs I have, for example streamed music at Volume 40 would be very loud, strong bass, vibrating doors and floor. To get the same thing with the turntable I've got to go up over 60 but then that starts to introduce speaker interference (not much, but you can hear it when the turntable is not playing). I'm hoping that the new Cambridge pre-amp that seems to get good reviews will increase the output and improve the volume so it is roughly equivalent to my other inputs through the amp.

I was going to hold off on the Ortofon cartridge but I'm now kind of in for a penny in for a pound and will always wonder what the difference might be, especially as I am really enjoying this return to vinyl (less so the sound.... just the general experience). I did look at alternative cartridges but the Ortofone Red seems to be the most popular so that'll do for me (it's been ordered in for Thursday), that said the current Audio Technica AT95E seems to be quite well regarded, oh well I have it as a backup)

I've also got some new phono cables on order from Amazon, I'm not going to pay Richer Sounds inflated prices for their cables though. These from Amazon will be more than good enough... https://www.amazon.co.uk/KabelDirekt-Digital-Stereo-Audio-Cable/dp/B00FQK327M

I have the same experience with fairly low volume from my TEAC so have to turn it up a bit though not enough to want to spend another £50 on a pre-amp (just another box getting in the way and using electricity). But I'd be interested to hear how you get on with the amp.

I did also look into alternative carts - did you see this discussion http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=51817 which might help?

Doing a bit more research and comparing stats it seems that the output from my Teac is quite low so I'm having to crank up the volume a fair bit. I've decided to get this phono preamp instead, again from Richer Sounds. I think it is also reduced in price but the reviews are very good and from what I gather it will double my output over the built in one.
http://www.richersounds.com/product/turntable-accessories/cambridge-audio/azur-551p/camb-551p-blk
This has been quite an costly exercise if I also add the Ortofon 2M Red into the equation.... but..... I've really enjoyed spinning my old records, for all their pops, crackles and scratches.

Plus there are some really nice reissues and collectables.... the Fleetwood Mac - Rumours, LP/CD/DVD pack is really good and that's before you even get onto the music (which I personally have always liked).

Also my 17 year old daughter has really got into it and loves all the various colour discs that she can get for rock/punk/grunge kind of bands that she likes.

hmm, this, Rega RP1 or the Pro-Ject Essential II
I also have a budget of £100 for a set of bookshelves, any suggestions ??

​I've done a little bit of research but I'll check out the options more fully when I decide to buy

I thought I'd better qualify those cartridges are recommended for the Denon & not the Teac although could still be suitable as they are considered "best" of budget but different cartridges shine in different arms.

​I'll probably be getting the ortofon red for my new teac tn300

It would seem there are a few good quality "budget" cartridges recommended for this deck. Ortofon 2M red, Denon's own DL110 or Audio technica's AT440MLa. Unfortunately tho' due to height restrictions of the arm & Denon's metal platter only a small range of cartridges are ideal.

I have no reason to give any valid reason as I find both CD & Vinyl enjoyable in equal measure. Both have their idiosyncrasies. Even cassette still stacks up as an enjoyable medium today imo.

Now that is something that of course LPs can offer. If you don't fool yourself that the sound quality is better, at least you get these real "fringe benefits"!

Went my local RS and they only had an ex display Flexson that looked quite tatty, so I looked at the Denon that looked OK, but the manager suggested the Teac Tn-300 and for over features and looks it seemed the best option. The manager also reduced it in price to £249. I took a bit of a risk as I hadn't researched this turntable but I'm happy with the results and spent the rest of the afternoon playing all my old vinyl.

Sound quality is good although it seems it will be improved further with a better cartridge, but feels real nice actually handling your music and watching it spin. So touch, sight and hearing, it all makes for a more pleasurable experience.

The habit never went away completely; it's just coming back, like any other fashion, as you can see in this graph.

And no, it says nothing about what the medium can do in terms of sound quality. It is completely and utterly a fashion. No-one in this thread has given any valid reason why a vinyl record has better sound quality than an uncompressed digital recording.

I don't think that habit ever went away, otherwise they would've ceased production long ago.
Has to say something about what the medium can do.

What - buying vinyl records again instead of CDs? :laughing:

Have you got some kind of affliction against audiophiles? (I note your little smirk) I think if it wasn't for those that strived for purity of sound we wouldn't be where we are today.

Hi-fi snobs would look down their nose at that - associations with the autochanger. In fact, I'm surprised they don't look down their noses at anything containing a motor, instead preferring a wind-up gramophone for freedom from electrical interference. :wink:

Something to bear in mind, the Denon is fully automatic.

​same price at Richer Sounds as well so I am tempted... just not sure which.... Denon or Flexson

This is the real deal here, thanks. Just bought this, been looking out for it on offer for a few weeks.

You missed my point. This is not a vinyl/CD debate. Like Vinyl, CD's CAN be produced/engineered better to produce a higher quality sound given time & effort.

Just listening to The Carpenters - Yesterday Once More, digital FLAC 96000Hz stereo 4608kbps. No one is going to tell me that vinyl is better than this.

Have Technics SL 1200 in the loft bought 40 years ago bought for about £115 in Beaver Radio,last time plugged it in, it worked.

tks for the info; I am thinking of selling it on ebay.

It does, but it was intended to - the person claiming that all are "sought after" was Tallyho, not me. :smiley:

It can't be argued "either way" - it can only be argued one way: the record has to be worse because it represents more processing in the analogue domain (point of conversion to analogue: cutting of the master disc) than a CD (point of conversion to analogue: CD player or amplifier).

Yeah sure, the source material can be crappy, but that argument is irrelevant when comparing CDs to vinyl. The CD will faithfully reproduce crappy source material; vinyl will add further distortion to it.

I'm not going to argue with you on that front but it does not mean that a digital recording to vinyl has to be any worse than CD. Only it's means of replay which could be argued either way of it's final result.


As with vinyl back in it's hey day it is mass produced, I'm pretty sure they could, if they tried, if they didn't have time restrictions & didn't have to stick to a certain set of rules to satisfy a whole range of criteria produce a higher quality CD recording.

Right, so your 'real world' (EBay) link rather proves my point. SP25s are selling for £6 - 69 (typically £30) - I don't class this as sought after, but maybe we have different viewpoints.
Whereas Garrard 401s are selling for £300-£1800
and 301s are selling for £500-£2300

Not sure what you mean by "sought after" but the real world doesn't really seem to agree.

I'm not forgetting anything. Of course it has to be converted to analogue. But digital to analogue conversion is a mature mass-produced technology which can be done extremely well for next to nothing nowadays.

That logic fails when you appreciate that "higher quality versions" are simply more marketing gimmicks to which "audiophiles" are so susceptible.

Any decent Garrard is sought after, you're talking rubbish.

You seem to be forgetting that a Digital recording also has to be converted to analogue, whether within the Cd player or via the amplifier. So either way digital has been converted to analogue just at a different stage & it could be argued as it has been converted at the professional stage for vinyl it ought to sound better given half a chance.
Also fwiw most CD recordings are far from perfect. If they were it would not be possible for specialist recording engineers/companies to produce higher quality versions.

BigAde, Rather than quoting it all, I do understand your philosophical argument that in theory a complete analogue end-to-end chain ought to produce better results. But unfortunately that idealism crashes into a brick wall when you try to apply it to the real world, because the distortions introduced by any analogue signal chain will far outweigh any distortions introduced by anything digital in that chain.

Besides which, you are getting dangerously close to what I alluded to earlier: thinking that vinyl records represent a complete analogue chain when in fact hardly anything has been like that for decades. Your LP is pressed from a digital recording, so can only sound worse than a digital recording, not better.

Irrelevant when no one can tell the difference, which as been proven time and time again.

Well said.

Correct, CD and digital media do not wear out.
For the purposes of sound reproduction the source is the media : vinyl, CD, radio, tape etc etc
So… imagine the purest form of music: someone singing in front of you while playing an acoustic guitar… the sound is produced by vocal chords and the strings vibrating… the sound waves reach your ear. All of this is analogue and is an incredibly detailed and complex sound wave. The holy grail of sound reproduction is to reproduce this exact same sound in a home environment.
If you can capture that sound into a microphone and record it in an analogue form and later reproduce that in an analogue form at home then (at least in theory) that’s the purest form of recording and reproduction. Extracting every last ounce of that complex signal from the analogue recording is where the difference in turntables and cartridges come in. Some people spend tens of thousands of pounds trying to extract this detailed information from vinyl. Digital recording involves sampling that analogue signal from the microphone thousands of times a second. When reproduced the signal is smoothed out so that it’s close enough to the original that the human ear can’t hear the difference (at least that was the intention). So the CD is not a true ‘clone’ of the original material… it’s a digital sample. LPs as a recording medium have their own sonic limitations too of course. Nothing is perfect.
Valid point, but I can’t see many people willing to convert their homes into anechoic chambers in the name of sound reproduction. Egg-cartons glued all over the living room walls would be a sure route to the divorce courts, at least in my house. 

troll and you know what? diddly squat. if its so wrong then correct me rather then embarrass yourself with a lame comment. the whole point of uk hot deals is that member can say why they think a deal is hot or cold, i quantified my comment and the reason why. It's comments like yours that make members like me not bother commenting. give yourself a pat on the back - i'm guessing no one else will.

Getting back to the deal...
This is a good price for this turntable therefore HOT.
However, I would recommend, for £15 more, the Teac TN300 refurbished from hm-stox.co.uk. I got one off eBay with the 20% so less than £200 and am very pleased with it. They are well-reviewed, have held up at full RRP (£300), have by-passable Phono stage and USB out for transfer to PC etc. (Though it is belt-driven!! - the horror!)
This is what I wanted though no doubt others will have different requirements.

But none of that applies to CDs or music stored in any other digital medium.
But the LP isn't the source - the source is where the material originated in the first place. CD, being digital, will produce a clone of the original material unless there is significant damage. LPs, being analogue, will always suffer degradation however much you spend on them and their player.

Why does no-one ever mention room acoustics? Perhaps because not many people have listened to the same loudspeakers in a living room and an acoustically-treated studio environment. The difference is night and day and drowns out any tinkering you might do with other things. But then sticking sound absorbers all over your room isn't as sexy as spending money on shiny amplifiers etc.

Yes, they are vulnerable to scratches and dust. With a little sensible care though (never touch the playing surface, use a dust remover before use, use plastic lined record sleeves) this isn't really a significant problem. Wearing out? It's a mechanical process dragging a piece of diamond through a plastic groove, so yes SLIGHT wear happens with every play. Not really a significant risk unless you have a badly setup turntable, worn stylus or you're going to play each disc hundreds of times.

Good sound from vinyl, like anything else, starts at the source. You need a well-pressed, well-produced LP. Same with CD. Rubbish in - rubbish out. Then good quality turntable/tone-arm/cartridge, amplification and speakers are also important, but that's also true with CD. It needn't cost silly money to achieve this.

not direct drive so cold. plus it's £299 if you are not a VIP. Spend the same amount and buy a technics 1210 on eBay (yes it will be USED but if looked after you can't go wrong)

Well yes actually I have. It is still limited by the mass produced disc. CD, my word you are living in the past aren't you? I use high bitrate digital downloads and these are far superior.

The Garrard SP25 is not sought after. The only ones that are are the 301 and 401.
Even then because they're idler wheel driven they can suffer from rumble. With a solid plinth and correctly setup they can sound great.

Love how BBC news was reporting that around half of vinyl lps purchased atm aren't even played...
Think i'll stick to SACD.

Good deal but for this sort of money I'd buy a nice condition Rega Planar 3, classic turntable that still sounds great today. New belt regardless for £12, Rega Carbon cartridge to get you going, sweet.

Joking aren't you.

Garrards can fetch decent money depending on condition.

I agree that vinyl records can sound good, but they are extremely vulnerable to scratches and dust, both of which will produce unwanted noise regardless of what you play them on. And of course they wear out.

What is the process by which you can make one sound better than a CD though?

Yes, I have one of their turntables (well, from their successor company anyway). Very good for the money.

Partly true to some extent, but a good recording and pressing can still sound awesome on vinyl. That's one reason why well pressed/recorded older vinyl from the 60s/70s in good condition can be very much sought after today. Also, a good turntable with good vinyl won't produce any clicks and pops. It's true that not all vinyl is well recorded and a large amount of what was coming out on vinyl by the mid 80s was low resolution digitally recorded and digitally processed rubbish. So while it's not true that all vinyl sounds better than all CD, with the right pressing and the right reproduction equipment, it can.

You are quite correct about the radio transmissions being digitally distributed to the FM transmitters, a process which started in the early 1970s.

To my mind, it's not that digital is bad and analogue is good: some digital can sound very good indeed. It's more that the early attempts in encoding music digitally used low resolution sampling and processing, this has improved substantially over the decades to the point where good digital can be the equal of good analogue. I'd prefer to listen to good digital over poor analogue and vice versa.

They're not bad entry level turntables, but they don't really have much of a following to attract high prices second hand.
The Technics SP10 is desirable, less so the SP25.
Other very desirable turntables from the past include Garrard 301 & 401, Thorens TD124/224 and EMT all of which properly set up still sound fantastic today.

Yeah - it simply cannot compete in adding all the clicks and pops.

This argument is as old as the hills. When CDs came along the naysayers said that analogue sound was better, without realising that the contents of most vinyl LPs had gone through many digital stages already. There were even people extolling the virtues of the BBC's analogue FM transmissions, which have been distributed digitally for decades (well before CDs were invented). It's pure snake oil, and the gullible always have and always will be fooled by it.

To be fair a good hifi direct drive unit (as opposed to a DJ deck like the Technics 1200, which is a fantastic piece of engineering but not the last word in sonic quality) will produce very little rumble. Both technologies are capable of being very impressive when well implemented.

I've heard the Pioneer equivalent of this player (they're also available under the Lenco name, and I think Audio Technica's budget decks are practically identical under the surface as well), and can't really fault it for the money. Good reliable motors on them as well.

All that money for a turntable and then stick a piece of pressed plastic on it. I cheered the passing of the "LP" with all it's shortcomings and then some bright advertising spark convinced the gullible that it is superior. Yeah! Right!?

How about entry level dual?

He seems to be a little confused about the merits of direct drive. Direct drive usually creates more rumble than belt drive. A decent belt drive like this will not have any wow and have very little rumble compared to a dd, cheaper decks will have plenty of wow but not on a quality deck like this. DJ's love direct drive as its more suited to scratching and mixing.

Just as a matter of interest, this Denon and the Pioneer PL-30K are made by the same OEM factory.

Which (as someone else pointed out) consists of merely signing up. Hardly exclusive is it.

I wonder what my trusty old SP25 in the loft is worth? :wink:

Heat added because this is a good price for this product.

I considered this turntable and ended up buying a Flexson VinylPlay as that's basically a Rega RP1, with the upgraded 24V motor and decent USB/phono stage built in (which I needed).

SevenOaks now selling that for £199 which is an absolute steal:
http://www.sevenoakssoundandvision.co.uk/p-12354-flx-vinylplay-wht.aspx?gclid=CjwKEAjw_7y4BRDykp3Hjqyt_y0SJACome3TTljqV7yO_3GV-ehM-dcwukiN1sMBeUcshC75Ew16TBoCj0rw_wcB

Direct drive? Belt drive? All it has to do is turn a piece of plastic at a constant speed. So many people fooling themselves that they can hear a difference, but 'twas ever thus...

Sign up free here http://www.richersounds.com/vip

i have read a review vs the rega p1 and its not as good, but the RP1 is expensive. i may give it a punt. as long as it sounds good i don't really mind. my hearing isn't as acute as it was and i can't usually tell the difference :smiley:

i'm after one, would this work well with my denon av amp? i think the built in phone stage should make it would via normal phono inputs?
not sure how this would compare to a rega planar 2 which i had years ago - i would need a separate phono stage with this one though

horses courses...... but you can't avoid the fact that this is only for VIP members or did I miss tht point...

A good belt driven turntable used is an investment imho

Direct drive is only really important if you're DJing and want to scratch - it allows the platter to get back to normal speed very quickly. For the best quality sound belt driven is usually better as it isolates the platter from motor noise.

beat!

So you got the email too then ;-)

Theres a decent unboxing video here....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ye0FQZtE5k