I don't trust them, they don't leave chargers on because they might catch fire, these are on all the time, the should invent one with a switch

I agree, sockets are not for playing with, though I don't worry about my children touching them. I can't imagine these sockets are any more likely to attract the attention of a child than a standard socket. My common sense teaches my children to be respectful of electricity, not to fear it. On the subject of sockets, the website below explains why socket 'protectors' are unsafe. Common sense is increasingly uncommon. :smiley:
http://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk

I would have thought that expensive, well designed, well tested, fully standards compliant and fully standard specified circuit breaker that contains minimal circuitry in more than adequate space in no way compare to a cheap complex SMPS or linear regulated AC to DC PSU squashed into tiny space that cannot be switched off that have significant active components for which there aren't really very helpful safety standards designed yet to check them against (beyond the distance between the HT and low voltage wires, which many tested units have failed)?

There is no way in hell we'll be fitting such things until they can be physically isolated with a switch, there are dedicated BS and EU standards to fully test them against and reputable manufacturers of mains equipment are supplying them.

There are some things you can get away with being cheap and dodgy, permanently connected and live PSUs are not one, in my opinion; but each to their own and everyone has opinion I guess (I do have a relevant degree but I'm not a practising electrician.)

Julie
X

No, magic isn't required, electronics will detect zero power drain from a device and shut itself down. It has to be said it won't be completely off compared to a physical switch but the quiescent current is so low that it's pretty much unmeasurable and therefore eseentially off. However, poorly designed powersupplies are dangerous and of concern and knowing which products are good (safe/efficient) and those that are bad (dangerous/inefficient) is another matter.

If you have a modern safe household wiring system I can't really see why there is such concern about a well designed and approved USB wall socket when so many other devices are permanently powered and often hard wired in that no one ever worries about like fridges, boilers, thermostats, TV, video, satellite, modems, routers, printers, timers, microwaves etc etc

Dont' get me wrong, there are many dangerous and unsafe products that look like this one but that doesn't mean ALL usb power sockets are the same, they are not.

Me too!

As a electronic engineer, I would be very interested to know :smiley:

When I get a moment I'll take one apart and see what technology it is using.

I understand what you are saying, but the outlet I have does seem to cut its output power. I have a small charger (charges at about 40mA) and sometimes this will not work until I try and draw a higher current - a higher draw seems to activate then I can plug in my low current device and it will supply power.

While I dont have a degree, I do have a bit of experience with low voltage power supplies. Most modern ones are SMPS (switch mode power supply) mainly due to weight (they dont use a conventional transformer) efficiency (they are more efficient than "linear" transformer psu's) they produce less heat and have a lower component count = cheaper.
The problem with the cheaper ones is they sometimes dont have good inlet over current protection (fuse in old money) and they sometimes dont have good voltage regulation on the output, meaning 5v could be higher or lower which can damage voltage sensitive devices.
The safety issue is how they achieve isolation between the mains supply and the low voltage side. A standard transformer uses magnetic "flux" to induce current from the primary to the secondary windings so there is no physical connection. An SMPS PSU uses a smaller switching transformer which again uses magnetic flux so has mains isolation.
A cheap power supply might use a rectifier to convert AC to DC (approx 340v DC) then a large wattage resistor to drop that down and then a very crude zener diode/transistor voltage regulator. This approach is a direct connection to the mains supply and even with a fuse is considered bad practice but is very cheap by comparison.
I have not ever opened one of these so I dont know what methods they use, but I would like to see one with a dedicated power switch to mechanically remove power to the USB power supply.
British Standards need to ammend their standards to account for this new generation of sockets.

My bad! they are Ni MH

Hi Julie,
I certainly wasn't trying to discourage you from commenting, so please don't 'shut your trap' on my account, it has been really nice that someone has entered into an informed discussion about something as trivial as a socket. I even enjoyed the 'so there. Ner ner de ner..' bit (and your dad has a point).

Whilst you are right that the primary winding will be connected to the ring main, there is of course an air gap between the primary and secondary winding (well, it is probably filled with a little bit of iron), so that 30A worth of electrons is not going to get anywhere near the 5V conductors. If there is a neutral or earth fault then that is what the ADS (MCBs plus RCDs) is there to protect against, just as it would in any other part of the system.

Best wishes,

Alan

Hiya

Yeah, I'm probably over reacting somewhat; but then I do worry a bit about e.g. the heating system and all those circuits too. :wink:

There was an investigation that was linked to in previous discussions of these that showed, at the time, a fair percentage of these broke standards with regards to distance between the high and low voltage parts and things like that.

Additionally I've been taking a proper look inside some low voltage devices recently and seeing just how naughty some of the short cuts taken can be (for example, a cheap Bluetooth shower speaker I have with a Li-Ion battery - I had suspicions about how it charged it's battery and when I opened it up it was far worse than I had imagined, there was no charging IC or similar and the only reason it doesn't overcharge, as in volts, the Li-Ion battery is the voltage losses due to one diode and significant resistive losses due to the poor charging lead it was supplied with.)

And lastly, my Dad was a lecky (why do you think I was encouraged to know at least the basics :wink: ) and he says they're bad, cos I just asked him, so there. Ner ner de ner. But seriously, I guess my main concern is build quality and failure modes, these things are "permanently"* connected to a 30A 230V ring-main so that's lot of power readily available if the circuit is inadequately protected. Personally I'd want to see one first and see how it's protected internally, because I'm probably overly cautious, which you have hence you're a rather more trusting of them.

I bow to your more informed judgement if you think these are okay and I will shut my trap as far as future discussions of these are concerned. :smiley:

Julie
x


*Mind you, I guess that's what RCDs are for; I just don't like relying upon them, though!

Hi jewelie,
I read one of your earlier posts. From that I see that you are strongly against these fittings, but I think perhaps you are making it a little more complex than it needs to be. We have many small current inductance devices in our homes (and workplaces) that turn common or garden 220v/240v AC into the flavour of electricity needed at the point of delivery.Most people are very happy to leave these plugged in all the time and they don't do any harm (aside from generating very small inductance losses within the transformer cores, which end up appearing in our homes as heat and so reduce our gas bills by an extremely small amount :-)
I see you have a relevant degree (so do I, in physics, I'm also an electrician, but I don't really do that as a job), which is marvelous, but I don't think this is a graduate engineer level problem: it is just O level physics.
Very best wishes, this has been an interesting topic.

I have not taken one of these apart, but I doubt there is any sort of current sensing apparatus attached to the transformer, that would be rather unnecessary and something else to go wrong. Think about it: if there is no circuit in the secondary winding (i.e. there is nothing plugged in to the USB socket) then there cannot be any current induced in it from the primary winding, can there. In that state the secondary winding's conductors would be held at 5V, but the unit would not use any power from the mains except for a tiny inductance loss in the core. Once something is plugged in then a circuit would be made and current (rectified by a diode arrangement to DC) would be able to flow.
Arrangements like this are not unusual in our homes and are safe (such as the PELV/SELV systems many of us have in our bathrooms that produce 110v/220v AC, or small items like toothbrush chargers) and most people leave these on all the time without worrying about them.

I had to look up 'Pastafarian'.
Cool banana.
Alan

I don't trust them, they don't leave chargers on because they might catch fire, these are on all the time, the should invent one with a switch

... by the way, Screwfix were selling these at two for a tenner a while ago, so it would be worth looking out to see of that deal reappears. In the meantime I've added a bit of heat, this is quite a good price.

Somewhat surprisingly the answer is not really. Whilst there are output standards for components (like IEC 60449) they leave the certification up the the originating country, which is fine for British manufactured items (or those made in China but sold by reputable British companies) but less so for other imported components (not just Chinese made components).
In this case the socket will be manufactured to BS5733, but that is a general standard that covers a whole host of domestic connectors. I haven't come across any poorly manufactured USB outlet sockets yet (the Lap ones that Screwfix sell seem fine, I've fitted a few and have one in each of my houses) and there isn't much to go wrong with a very low current inductance device.
I think these items are okay, and pretty handy in a study for charging cell phones and tablets. Changing a socket on a like for like basis is not notifiable work, and whilst I'd like to think people would get a competent person (electrician) to do the work there is no legal requirement to do so.

Are you sure they're 1.5V Li-ion batteries?

Oh that's rather neat! :smiley:

I've hard of ones that shutoff USB output completely when no cable plugged in. Does anyone recommend them?

Transformers etc that are designed to meet and tested against a specific formal standard and manufactured (hopefully) by reputable companies?

​any info on what's going to replace them, and when?

The metal face is connected to earth on the socket, it doesn't require a separate connection. It makes it particularly easy to ground yourself if working with static sensitive electronics. Aside, I often hear people commenting they got a shock while switching a light on when actually it was static discharge to the metal face.

You want the usb sockets to give out at least 1.0 amps now, with the new smartphones and tablets, they eat juice faster than the sockets charge them if they aren't 1 amp minimum. I fitted one that only gave out 0.5 a, and it was barely charging my phone as I was using it.

Im talking about the faceplate not the socket itself.

I don't think it's a patentable idea, even though I know you were being facetious. But as russ17 said it's not out of the realms of reason. I would imagine some kind of reed relay setup would work well but it would increase the cost, which in turn, would put people off.

Agreed - I have a USB Power bank which only gives 5V out when a cable is connected. It went faulty so as an electronics engineer I investigated. What they have done is used a metal rod that grounds a the connection to the 5V buck regulator that genrates the 5V from 2 x 1.5V Li-Ion batteries. This way the unit is powered only when a USB Cable is connected. I am surprised thay these units and others do not employ this sort of system.

Carry on that way mate - in a short while they'll be obsolete anyway and you'll have saved the cost, hassle and risk!

OK - patent that then and make your fortune? In the meantime this and similar products DO NOT switch off (presumably the many ignorant posters and buyers somehow think the 240v switch also operates on the USBs?).

Good logic point. No it's not ok, anybody could trip over them! #ouch #wholeftthatdamnbatterythere

Probably some sort of mechanical automatic switch so when a cable is plugged in, as the metal clips engage (that hold the cable in) it enables power - some power bank batteries do this - and when it's removed it breaks the circuit again which turns it off. Or a simple physical switch.

For all the comments about poking around in the USB as they don't appear to be switched off. Surely you don't think that its 240v coming out of the USB, it would be more likely to be converted to 12v so not a safety issue.

any reports of any of these sockets actually catching fire, as this argument gets brought up every time one of these get posted. I have thought about buying these loads of times, and will at some point, but keep getting put off.

​Is that any different from poking around a charger with a USB, that's plugged into a socket? They are pre safe Makes you proud to be British :smiley:

Just no until a properly manufactured, tested and accredited design comes to market.

I would have thought that expensive, well designed, well tested, fully standards compliant and fully standard specified circuit breaker that contains minimal circuitry in more than adequate space in no way compare to a cheap complex SMPS or linear regulated AC to DC PSU squashed into tiny space that cannot be switched off that have significant active components for which there aren't really very helpful safety standards designed yet to check them against (beyond the distance between the HT and low voltage wires, which many tested units have failed)?

There is no way in hell we'll be fitting such things until they can be physically isolated with a switch, there are dedicated BS and EU standards to fully test them against and reputable manufacturers of mains equipment are supplying them.

There are some things you can get away with being cheap and dodgy, permanently connected and live PSUs are not one, in my opinion; but each to their own and everyone has opinion I guess (I do have a relevant degree but I'm not a practising electrician.)

Julie
X

these USB will be obsolete in a few years

These look a good price - heat added,

Has anyone seen a good deal on single ones though? I need a single socket. I've seen a Masterplug one in Wickes for £10 with 2 x USB (2.1A shared) and slimline so fits a 25mm box.

Just seems bad that it costs more for less!

These require a 25mm box.

Be a damn funny, and illegal, ring main circuit without the earth wire.

All UK sockets have an earth connection. Not all light switches have an earth(though it doesn't stop DIY attempts to fit metal faced light switches IME).

This is an issue because?

Have you looked at a 13a socket? If it's genuine you cannot possibly push anything into the live 'holes' without first pushing somehing into the earth 'hole' to release the guards. That's why the earth pin is longer, it's a clever design feature.

FYI, I posted the metal faced version of this for £10 from Amazon

I have loads of usb sockets from screwfix but I always change my sockets when I redecorate every 5 years or so. The cost isn't a big consideration on the grand scheme anyway. So longevity is a moot point for me. Saves the trouble of the kids pinching chargers off each other. Found them to be really good and charge everything quick enough for my liking.

And I can't really disagree with you either :smile:

As more devices support fast charge then the requirements will keep changing.... these USB wall plates have a finite lifespan/technology lifespan for sure, that's why I only fitted one, in a solid brick wall (so if the USB bursts into flames the wall should be ok!)

I'm in 98% agreement with you - of course it's the other 2% which could burn your house down (especially if fitted by an amateur)! It will NOT "shut itself down"; the consumption will be small but NOT immeasurable. More seriously, it's a flawed concept: insufficient current for a growing number of products and will be outdated as soon as USB sockets change (is it USB 3 which is coming soon?).

No, magic isn't required, electronics will detect zero power drain from a device and shut itself down. It has to be said it won't be completely off compared to a physical switch but the quiescent current is so low that it's pretty much unmeasurable and therefore eseentially off. However, poorly designed powersupplies are dangerous and of concern and knowing which products are good (safe/efficient) and those that are bad (dangerous/inefficient) is another matter.

If you have a modern safe household wiring system I can't really see why there is such concern about a well designed and approved USB wall socket when so many other devices are permanently powered and often hard wired in that no one ever worries about like fridges, boilers, thermostats, TV, video, satellite, modems, routers, printers, timers, microwaves etc etc

Dont' get me wrong, there are many dangerous and unsafe products that look like this one but that doesn't mean ALL usb power sockets are the same, they are not.

I agree, sockets are not for playing with, though I don't worry about my children touching them. I can't imagine these sockets are any more likely to attract the attention of a child than a standard socket. My common sense teaches my children to be respectful of electricity, not to fear it. On the subject of sockets, the website below explains why socket 'protectors' are unsafe. Common sense is increasingly uncommon. :smiley:
http://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk

Pretty sure these types of sockets are 2.1A shared between the USB sockets so you can charge one device at 2.1 or two devices at 1.05 each.

The screwfix ones with usb charge slow

Which is precisely the point! Don't stick your oar into things you don't understand.

Maybe not but commonsense says anything that might attract children to poking around mains sockets is a bad idea.

But your fridge + your alarm clock are twice as likely to blow up.............I'll let you extrapolate from there if it's not too challenging a concept.

Good place to charge usb sticks

It's like when you go on holiday, you turn everything off just in case but not the fridge, the fridge can be trusted it won't let you down. Whereas in reality it's just as likely to blow up as your alarm clock is.

I think the clue is in the word he said - 'switch'.

Hope over experience I'd say - and how are they going to "turn the USB ports off" - magic?

Just search for the MANY times such things have been listed on here recently and see the comments as to why they are a very bad idea.

Have you tried accessing a live conductor on a UK socket? Not an easy task, certainly not something you'll manage by accident.
These USB sockets are no less safe than a standard socket assuming they are fitted correctly.

Yes you're probably right and a fair point about a wall socket lifespan being 20 years whereas I suspect these USB versions won't last that timescale. However I got one in my kitchen to try out and it's fine, I got a stainless steel version from Screwfix and the build quality looked good and narrow depth. I certainly won't be fitting them all over the house though.

Screwfix ones work great for me with ipads.

I'm sure they'll be better than the £1 ones. Even the £2 eBay ones are a lot better than the £1 ones, generally electrically safe at least.

Problem with anything like this is that they use very cheap components and the USB ports are bound to fail loooooooong before the usual 15-20 year lifespan of a wall socket -- and of course it's extremely unlikely that we'll still be using the current USB standards for charging devices in 15 years in any case.

you need quite a deep socket to fit too...bought one for the living room but the housing wasn't deep enough

oos

We have screwfix ones and I've measured 1.2A from them.

What's the safety views on these things?

Getting cheaper, I think, I'll change most sockets when these come down to less then £5.

A bit off the track, but, does anyone know how to use CPC credit notes, I have two but don't see an option when paying online for using them.