Jesus. This is hilarious. There's one guy who knows EXACTLY what he's talking about. And another who hasn't a clue. If you shoot a DSLR or for that matter ANY camera in manual mode, and have any knowledge of F stops, sensors, and shutters, it's obvious who knows his stuff and who is making a proper mug of himself. Please God. Don't anybody tell them. It's brilliant reading on a Saturday night.

Refresh is only directly from O2. Go careful though. Plenty of people have been stung with drawn out sagas when trying to cancel. Some have even had poor credit scores because of "unpaid bills".

I'll say this, anyone who takes the word of a Chinese college kids blog over that of the website recognised by the photography industry as being the standard setting, deserves help.

Pre-production plus pre-release firmware equals fail

http://twentyfirsttech.com/2015/09/24/sony-xperia-z5-first-impressions/

Ouch!

It's a shame I never found that article before having our little duel. That article - from an Xperia OWNER - completely rips the Z5 apart.

Some particular highlights;

"Only in Sony’s offerings are you prevented from obtaining RAW images with far more detail than compressed JPGs, are denied the ability to choose your own shutter speed, focus distance and dial in a white balance number. Now, while this is already a pretty bad domain to be lagging behind your competitors in, it’s just the tip of the iceberg."

"While more in-depth testing with a review unit will reveal the extent to which the Superior Auto camera algorithm is still suffering, our initial usage of the Z5 camera shows that there is a ridiculous amount of noise reduction going on even under the bright lights at the launch event. Fine details were missing even in the 23 MP mode – zooming into faces more than 2 meters away yielded almost comically cartoonish features"

"Even without the Camera2 API, Sony previously allowed users to manually select the ISO at whichever resolution you fancied, so the shutter speed was forced to be reduced to bring in more light. This was perfect in those situations where you were confident of your steady hands or had a tripod to mount your phone upon, and didn’t want excessive noise in your images.
Well, it’s now gone. The Manual mode in the camera has just become utterly useless."

"Now, Sony forces you to limit your resolution to 8 MP if you want to manually set the ISO, denying you the ability to take advantage of the full 23 MP or even 20 MP the camera can use. With Sony’s perennial issues with the automatic camera algorithm (which has not even been rectified), you now get photos with truckloads of noise when you select a resolution above 8 MP as you’re forced to use Auto ISO."

"When we asked the Sony representatives their reasoning behind this limitation, they were at a loss for words before stammering out a rather unbelievable excuse that the sensor could not handle manual ISO at 20 or 23 MP, even though it was no problem at 20.7 MP with the previous Xperia Z devices.
To call this padded box “Manual Mode” is an insult."

"Low-light performance has regressed hugely, and lags miles behind competitors"

The reason for this is two-fold:

The Xperia Z2/Z5 is limited to 8 MP if you want to utilise the low-light scene, regardless if in Superior Auto or Manual mode. This is an obvious hit to the fine detail in the images.
Manual mode at 8 MP, low-light scene, and ISO 50 (to reduce noise) produces a pitch-black image. This clearly highlights the shortcomings of the Xperia Z5’s camera algorithm, which looks to have become worse than its predecessors."

Here's the kicker though;


"Even the Xperia Z2, with an obviously worse white balance selection fared better but the LG G4 simply blew the Xperias away.


"Not only do its rivals leave it to choke in their dust, but so do the older Z-series devices (or at least the Xperia Z2). I’ve no idea what has happened to Sony Mobile’s camera department with the Z5, but it’s sure to torpedo any sales from photography enthusiasts."




Remember when you asked me whether I wanted to eat some humble pie at the very start of our chat??

:smile:

So I have a Z3 Compact which I bought for battery life and image quality. The former is fantastic - 2 days with lots of use, no problem. The image quality however is not so great - in auto, in manual at different settings, not even as good as my old Samsung Galaxy S3. Can anyone who owns the Z5C comment on the image quality that they have experienced, and any comparisons to other phones they've owned?

I am satisfied with my z5... however I cannot see a vast improvment over my two year old Lumia 920.
I am happy to have apps working again though... so sticking with the phone.

However this article below points out some of my criticisms of the phone... I especially dislike the inability to manually adjust the iso in manual mode for resolutions above 8mp

http://twentyfirsttech.com/2015/09/24/sony-xperia-z5-first-impressions/

I'm guessing there's a fair chance that 'aperturescience' is the alter ego of dead4red69 (given that you joined today, and that this is your first comment).

Nevertheless, I am loving those word maps - so could you tell me how (and where) you created them?

Also, since you've linked me to some random electronic music I've never heard, here's some that I reckon you'll have probably never heard:smiley:

dead4red69, approx 1571 words


wenttoabetterplace, approx 5277 words


A masterclass on e-discourse. Keep on Bangin' Da' keyboards people!

'Goodbye', no he's 'Still Alive'

What a tool

Okthanksbye

The photography world according to you;

- An F1.8 lens will inherently give worse daylight photos than an F2.0 lens.
- The size of a camera sensor is directly proportional to the number of megapixels.
- Auto HDR (without being able to disable it) is a good thing.
- DNG RAW is an irrelevance

Your comprehension throughout this has been woeful. Worse than that, you don't EVER address the issues I highlight to you. You just swerve and deflect.

A reminder - the basis for your entire argument is the full auto results from Dx0's lab tests. That is it!!!

I have made my points, exemplified why I believe them to be the case, and also cut down the criticism you have slung my way. You on the other hand have simply tried to avoid answering ALL of the factual inaccuracies that I have invited you to respond to.

Good luck out there

I'm done discussing anything with you, you cannot comprehend bare basic photography concepts. The whole discussion is beneath me.

You have swerved comment 132 and 133 for a SECOND time. Congrats :wink:. You have also seemingly missed an explanation that was in plain view;


--> On a 3MP crop of both sensors where the number of pixels in each crop is exactly the same;
The G4 comprehensively beats the Z5.

--> On a scaled crop of both sensors (where the Z5 is actually resolving 1/3 more megapixels in the same field of view);
The G4 STILL comprehensively beats the Z5.


Whether you look on a PIXEL BY PIXEL basis, or by scaling the image so the FOV is the same, the G4 beats the Z5. What is it that you cannot comprehend in that?!

More importantly, you consistently fail to reply to my points of contention. & you seemingly cannot comprehend basic statements when they are presented to you.

This is not the basis for a logical discussion. It is a waste of my time...

STOP REPLYING ON HERE. IF YOU WANT TO REPLY, DO SO VIA PM.

You cannot compare fairly the same crop level of two images taken with a different FOV.

End of story.

Congratulations on swerving all the points I made in comments 132/133. I would probably have done the same if I was in your position :wink:

As for your latest comment;

We are assessing the image performance of these sensors. It therefore stands to reason that with both sensors having the SAME pixel pitch, it is entirely fair to assess both sensors at exactly the same crop level. The field of view is utterly irrelevant here.

But just to be clear;

On a 3MP crop of both sensors where the number of pixels in each crop is exactly the same;
The G4 comprehensively beats the Z5.

On a scaled crop of both sensors (where the Z5 is actually resolving 1/3 more megapixels in the same field of view);
The G4 STILL comprehensively beats the Z5.

Just to be clear though - as you still don't seem to have worked it out. The following question does not make any sense;

"Care to try and explain what impact FOV would have on a 23MP vs 16MP image?"

The question you should have asked was;

"Care to try and explain what impact a 3MP crop would have on the field of view of a 23MP vs a 16MP image"

Can you see the all important detail that you missed out in your question? I shouldn't be forced to try and deduce what it is I THINK you mean. You should be articulating exactly what it is you are wishing to know (especially given that earlier in this thread, you believed that the size of a camera's sensor is directly proportional to the number of megapixels :laughing:. With logic like that, I'm sure you can understand why you need to be explaining yourself better!).

If you want to keep talking about all this, do so in private messaging (I can't message you because it says you have disabled messaging).

Utter, utter nonsense. A 23MP shot on the Z5 produces a image size of 5520 x 4140. A 16mp shot on the G4 produces 5312 x 2988.

Therefore to produce comparable photos you have to alter the FOV, if you don't and crop the images to the same size, you are effectively zooming in even further automatically pixelating the results.

I'm done hand holding you through this. Leave the discussion here and go take a basic photography course.

You asked;

"Care to try and explain what impact FOV would have on a 23MP vs 16MP image?"

I explained that your question is a load of rubbish. The number of megapixels has ZERO bearing on the field of view of a camera. The ONLY things that influence the field of view are;

- Focal length of the lens
- Size of the sensor

Holding your hand through all of this is becoming exhausting. Can we PLEASE draw a line in the sand - because you are wasting my time now.

FOV is irrelevant? It's the most important thing to any photographer, your opinion is worthless.

Right Dead4Red69 - let's cut a deal here. If you want to continue this discussion, head over to private messaging. But let's STOP airing our thoughts in this forum! It's become reeeeeeeaaaaaaaally tiresome.

That is a fundamentally flawed question

Field of view is determined by the focal length of the lens and the size of the sensor. It has NOTHING to do with the number of megapixels.

Dude...if you don't understand the significance and importance of RAW in the hands of a photographer, then just say so. Don't try and palm it off as some inconsequential feature.
Did you bother reading that Colbey Brown blog?! I would have thought that would have been most illuminating for you!

*Flawed :wink:
(Much like your logic)

HDR cannot be switched off. It rears its ugly blurry head without any say so from the user. It is that lack of control that is so seemingly problematic for the Z5. & I find it risible that you are knocking the 'methodology' of the bloggers out there when their photos are the very definition of real world. Dx0 is all laboratory based....at least the bloggers are taking the kind of photos we all take.

Also, you keep spinning the same old yarn about the Z5 having the better sensor. Both sensors have the exact same pixel pitch. So you are basing your comment solely on the Z5 having more megapixels. But in the GSMArena link I have provided to you, that extra resolution has no discernible benefit. In fact, the G4 comprehensively beats the Z5 in all three test images.

It would seem that you are entrenched in your Dx0 views because it is one of the few websites that actually supports your claim. Get your head out from the sand and you'll see that REAL WORLD photos taken by the Z5 (presumably in superior auto) are frequently blurry.

To be clear....as things stand right now, your ENTIRE argument is based around the laboratory based results of Dx0. Flawed logic, wouldn't you say :wink:

Care to try and explain what impact FOV would have on a 23MP vs 16MP image?

Don't waste your breath, despite the Z5 having full manual controls and the best camera on the market, as has been proven, this guy wants to make a fuss about RAW.

The fact that he didn't know the difference between a F1.8 and F2.0 lens before I told him and that he cannot tell the difference between hard and software should tell you all you need to know.

The fact of the matter is HDR is not on all the time.

The reason most comparison have been so poor is because of the floored methodology used by most bloggers.

99.9% of the population use the default camera settings, by default the Z5 wins.

In manual, the Z5 has the ability to fully customise your shot to your hearts delight. With a better sensor than the G4, the z5 will beat the G4 in most conditions.

Ignore all the from the industry standard photographers website if you like, pay heed to mobile phone bloggers with floored methodology if you so wish, but please, stop boring everyone with your nonsense.

Something else I would like to point out is that after my initial concerns about my Z5 compact I am now very pleased with it... Not because of the photos which I am actually quite pleased with.. and not because of android which is in my opinion not as good as Windows phone... but simply because of the video.
The video in all lighting is fantastic... and the audio is also brilliant... after using it for a week I already have the best videos of my two young daughters in my collection... which in my opinion is priceless.

I have found myself more and more taking videos rather than stills shots.. so for me this is the best compact phone at the moment.
Ta

You have come in at the tail end of this discussion. If you look back to its genesis, you will see that I was disputing dead4red's claim that the Z5 has the best camera on a smartphone right now.
It doesn't.
It is missing a number of tricks that would allow a proper photographer to get the most out of the hardware.
The G4 does a much better job in this regard.

Also, please don't make assumptions about how people use their cameraphones. If you want to learn a thing or two about how full manual control/DNG can unlock these cameras, then read the following article;

http://www.colbybrownphotography.com/gear-review-a-photographers-take-on-the-lg-g4/

I personally ALWAYS shoot in manual mode on my Lumia 1020 - & I always used JPEG + RAW. Have been doing so for the last couple of years.

The Z5 and the G4 have the same pixel pitch.
The G4 has a brighter lens (F1.8 ), proper OIS .... and importantly, DNG RAW. It also doesn't have a hobbled full auto mode (HDR cannot be switched off in 'superior auto' on the Z5).

The Z5 does well in lab settings. Much like its predecessors though, it doesn't perform consistently in the real world. I personally think the auto HDR mode has much to answer for!

So what, the G4 has full manual controls, Sony could patch that in and get better results than the G4.

Why don't they do that? Because no one shoots in manual or uses RAW on a smartphone.

Of course I like full auto, it's the most important setting since that is what you're shooting with most of the time. No one is going into manual mode to take every shot, that's crazy and you should only ever need manual if you have a bad auto mode... ideally auto should do the work for you.

If a camera has crap auto, it's crap.


Talking about what a camera can "really" do.... there are no phones better right now than the Z5 or the GS6, this has been proven on every site so far. The new Nexus phones as well are 1/2.3 sensors with a pixel pitch of 1.55 and 12mp, they're the largest sensors along side Sony's and should take in more light. They've gone for larger pixels rather than OIS, you don't need OIS to increase exposure if you can have a faster shutter.

It's no secret that the iPhones with a 1/3 sensor (the smallest by far) aren't as great as they once were, they're only being held up by Apple's fantastic imaging software.


The only phones that can knock the Z5 off the top spot this year are the Lumia's, but we'll have to wait and see and they use Windows Phone...

Ok....so you ignore the verdict of a professional photographer and the merits of DNG RAW

http://www.colbybrownphotography.com/gear-review-a-photographers-take-on-the-lg-g4/

You also ignore the anecdotal results of the various YouTube bloggers that have posted unbiased side by side photos of the Z5 vs the G4.

You also give no credence to GSMArena's results...for reasons unknown. (Just LOOK at those grey chart results at 3MP crop! The Z5 photos are noisy, grainy and far behind the G4)

http://www.gsmarena.com/piccmp.php3?idType=2&idPhone1=6901&idPhone2=7535

Yet you DO give credence to full auto tests from Dx0?!

I asked a simple question, and you came back with that.

The answer you should have given was;

No - HDR cannot be switched off. It comes on automatically according to the cameras assessment of the scene in hand.

My contention is that this may well be the reason why so many Z5 photos that I have seen across a myriad of user reviews exhibit excessive blur and detail smearing. If the end user doesn't know when HDR is going to fire - and when it isn't - then how can they be expected to stabilise their hand accordingly. A three shot burst merged in camera to create a HDR photo requires a different approach to a single shot photo. You need to stay v.v.steady with HDR.

My point in all of this. Sony love their software gimmicks. HDR coming on at random is a gimmick. It is also degrading the quality of their photos.

SO, if you want to get the best out of a Sony Z5 (and disable HDR), you need to switch to manual mode. Since you need to use manual mode to get the best out of the camera, why not go for the camera with the much better manual mode (the G4)?!!

Fine, find one other industry recognised photography website detailing the Z5 vs the G4.

You're being disingenuous!

Is HDR enabled in every photo taken in the default camera setting of the Z5? No!

You cannot therefore fairly compare a photo with HDR turned on vs HDR turned off. This is what androidauthority will be doing, it cannot be classed as a fair test.

If you cannot grasp such a simple concept than your opinion is worthless.

If you like full auto, take heed of Dx0's results. If you value the absolute capability of a camera, then look beyond Dx0.

http://www.dxomark.com/Mobiles

Currently the best Smartphone camera and the stabilization for the video has been rated as the best. I've seen examples of the video with steadyshot on and it's true, OIS in mobiles is rather useless, it cannot compensate for enough and it usually just distorts the image, digital is far superior when done right.

I had the Z1c and Z3c, I love these phones, but I went for the iPhone 6s this year and I regret it. My battery life with the Z1 and 3 compact phones was anywhere between 3-5 days, my battery life with the iPhone 6s is only a day, it's terrible. I spose I could sell it and buy one of these though, but I'm too lazy to do that.

You're quite evasive aren't you....

Since you are ignoring all the other points I just made, let's just nip the HDR one in the bud.

ONE simple question for you;

- Can you FULLY DISABLE the auto HDR mode in superior auto?

Yes or no?

:man:

Is HDR always on? No!

Is it a fair comparison: HDR on vs HDR off? No!

Come back when you know the difference between hardware and software.

So which is better the G4 or the Z5 ?.. thanks guys.

:wink:

Replying at 2am? I think this is getting out of hand!

Question - Can you switch off the auto HDR feature on the Z5?
Answer - No. It comes on at will according to Sony's algorithms.
Question - So to be sure, HDR IS on by default...and it cannot be turned off?
Answer - Exactly

Who exactly is embarrassing whom in this :wink:

As for Dx0 - I can understand why you keep going back to it. You shoot in full auto - and that suits you. That is fine. But the whole premise of this discussion was that I believe the G4 to be the most capable of the two cameras; and the one that a photographer would reach for first.

Nothing you have said has undermined my original contention. The Z5 is for the point and shooter. The G4 is for those who wish for the extra power and versatility.

DNG RAW, F1.8 lens, proper OIS, faster shot to shot time, no forced HDR in auto mode, & a much nicer manual control interface. When Sony implement those things, then by all means come back and chat.

I think it's time to wrap up this little exchange. For your sake, let's just agree to disagree.

God damn, you're the worst troll ever. I just gave you a source which states that HDR is not on all the time in default mode, that's how androidauthority are wrong. Additionally, when in manual mode it is entirely up to you whether you turn it on or not.

If androidauthority were looking to give a balanced opinion they would have left all phones with their default settings as 99.9% of people who use a camera phone do. When shot in default mode, DxOMark, the recognised industry standard for camera and lens image quality measurements and ratings, gave the phone a higher rating than the G4.

Please stop embarrassing yourself.

Umm....how are AndroidCentral wrong?! HDR cannot be switched off. It isn't utilised all the time - but it IS utilised under varying conditions.
Given that AndroidCentral are trying to give a balanced impression of the cameras, they had to turn on HDR on ALL the phones to compensate for the Z5's shortcoming.

If you are happy having HDR photos taken at random by Sony's algorithms (rather than your judgement), then I guess you are well suited to a Z5.
& if you are happy ALWAYS being limited by Sony's JPEG algorithms....even in full manual mode....then the Z5 is clearly for you.

For photographers though - the G4 makes far more sense.

I should add that add the next best deal I've found for this is Amazon.it for 380ish delivered.

Well, Androidauthority are wrong. The default setting for the Z5 is superior auto mode, SA may or may not turn on HDR depending on the scene it is shooting.

From Sony's website "As Xperia’s default camera mode, Superior Auto turns HDR on and off depending on your surroundings"

Source: http://support.sonymobile.com/gb/xperiaz5compact/dm/take-great-photos/

Quite a logic jump to claim that one sensor is better than the other when they both have the same pixel size (1.12 µm)

Disregarding all of the hardware benefits of the G4, it is DNG RAW that makes the G4 the better camera.

Just have a chew on the following article;
http://www.colbybrownphotography.com/gear-review-a-photographers-take-on-the-lg-g4/

You'll perhaps gain an understanding of how JPEG processing kills detail.

Wasn't trolling....just grown bored of discussing these things. Figured I'd give us both an easy way out of this rather pointless debate.

Since you are persisting, let's talk HDR;

YOU - "Finally, the z5 does not have HDR by default in auto mode and you're the only person in this thread who has suggested the camera is dodgy."

http://www.androidauthority.com/xperia-z5-vs-lg-g4-vs-galaxy-note-5-vs-iphone-6s-camera-comparison-648251/

REALITY: "N.B. As the Xperia Z5 comes with HDR turned on by default (and no way to turn it off unless you switch to manual mode), all phones had Auto HDR turned on by default. The EOS 70D images were edited post-capture to reflect HDR and are most representative of the scene. All the images captured have been cropped to 16×9 aspect ratio"

Thoughts :man:

I'm not sure if you're trolling on purpose or not...

You haven't explained why the G4 is better in a photographers hands, and no photographers have compared the two. Mobile phone bloggers are not photographers. At the end of the day, both are very capable cameras, the G4 has a 1/2.6 vs the Z5 with 1/2.3, both have 1.12 µm pixel size. The Z5 therefore has the superior sensor.

The Z5 has the fastest auto focus on the market. It's got a hybrid optical stabilisation system, only you seem to doubt it's capabilities in this respect (seriously, find any serious reviews where people are complaining about it).

Finally, the z5 does not have HDR by default in auto mode and you're the only person in this thread who has suggested the camera is dodgy.

ACTUALLY....these are dangerous times, & I fear we are heading for trouble.

So, how about we put our guns down;



AND



AND;



Kiss and make up?

<3

You keep quoting me on that, when you know full well that I didn't intentionally use 'increase'. The context of that quote demonstrates that I was talking about the benefits of an F1.8 lens vs an F2.0 - along with the added benefits that come from optical image stabilisation.

Since you keep on quoting that, let me just highlight a few of your misjudged quotes. (The difference between yours and mine is that mine was an error - whereas you actually believe yours!);

YOU "Dxomark tested both the Z5 and the g4 using the default out of the box settings, the z5 was the superior camera, what's more real world performance than that?
I am telling you that the G4 has the better camera. The ONLY evidence you have given regarding the Z5 being better is from Dx0 - who by your own admission test everything in full auto! THAT in no way demonstrates that the Z5 is better. & I have explained numerous times why the G4 is the better camera in a photographers hands.

YOU "The Z5 does have optical image stabilisation, simply put, the G4 does not beat the Z5, that's why nobody other than yourself is claiming it does."
The Z5 DOES NOT have optical image stabilisation. Stop claiming it does. & please don't claim that digital stabilisation can compete (you only have to look at real world photos from the Z5 to see the noticeable blur that is almost entirely absent from corresponding iPhone 6S & LG G4 photos).

YOU "More light entering the lens means more backlight blur, meaning less detailed photos during daylight shoots.
Good one. Not true though.

YOU "There is optical image stabilisation on the Z5."
Nope - though you'll seemingly never admit it!

YOU "Finally, 16 & 23mp are the sensor sizes. They cannot be the same thing in the same space."
Nonsense;
Fujifilm 16MP APS-C sized sensor
Nikon 24MP APS-C sized sensor
You are right that the sensor sizes are different. But you are entirely factually incorrect in saying that the number of MP determines the sensor size.

YOU "As for RAW there are dozens of apps on the play store that will produce photos in this format if you wished."
Aaah, so to get the best cameraphone experience on an Xperia Z5, I need to use a third party app?! That would of course mean that one misses out on the Sony image processing for the JPEG (not necessarily a bad thing) in order to get the DNG RAW? Sounds like a very imperfect solution when the G4 has already proven itself so ably in the hands of professional (and amateur) photographers.

YOU "RAW images are identical whether they are captured by a default camera app or a third party one. There would be nothing preventing Sony from pushing a software update that would allow this functionality anyway."
You don't understand RAW images. They are only of any real use IF the manufacturer releases corresponding RAW image profiles. These allow the end user to correct known issues with the lens/sensor that would otherwise be corrected during the JPEG creation process. Sony are unlikely to ever release such profiles given that they don't even support DNG capture...so that means you are stuck with JPEG processing.

What are your thoughts on the default HDR in auto mode? What are your thoughts on the various unbiased YouTube videos that I have linked to earlier that show the Z5 taking very blurry/noisy/detail smeared images? (There are other people on this thread bemoaning the Z5's ropey images!)

I think you've got yourself confused, I quote:

"what is happening when an F number increases?!!! It is allowing more light to the sensor"

Wrong, the opposite happens. If you need someone to explain to you the inherent dangers of letting more light into a lens while taking a photo you really shouldn't be commenting on any discussion around photography...

Optical vs digital image stabilisation is irrelevant if it works. In the Z5 it works amazingly well.

You have not provided any reasonable argument about why a manufacturer app vs third party app is better for RAW, just conjecture.

The HDR by default argument is mute, by default the Z5 has the highest scoring mobile camera ever produced...

Not that this matters. You've never owned a G4 or a Z5 and haven't taken a single photo from either.

Jees, not you again!

The guy who thinks an F1.8 lens is inherently worse than an F2.0 lens in brighter conditions. (You still haven't explained why that is the case?)
The guy that thinks the Z5 has optical image stabilisation (it doesn't. It has digital stabilisation).
The guy that gives overwhelming value to the full auto results of Dx0.
The guy that thinks DNG image support via a third party app is anywhere near comparable to manufacturer level DNG support (with accompanying RAW image profiles).

Regardless of all those things, Sony are forcing HDR by default. If you know about HDR, you'll know why that is a terrible decision...and explains why the Z5 photos from across the web are blurry/overprocessed and suffering from detail smearing.

Fair cop on the sensor size - trying to find such details about the Z5 wasn't the easiest of things. The Z5 does have a bigger sensor - but it also has a 1/3 more megapixels - which negates the benefit of the bigger sensor.

All of the hardware/software speak aside, you have yet to provide one example of the Z5 beating the G4 in photo quality. All you have given is the Dx0 results.

HDR by default, no OIS, no DNG RAW, an F2.0 lens (vs the G4's F1.:sunglasses:. These are all BIG reasons why I would far sooner own a G4 than a Z5.

Other than:

Getting software and hardware mixed up

Not knowing the difference between F1.8 and F2.0

Assuming that the G4 and Z5 have the same size sensor (they don't)

Basically, not knowing anything about the Z5 or G4 camera other than a rudimentary Google search.

I could go on, but there really isn't much point.

Jesus. This is hilarious. There's one guy who knows EXACTLY what he's talking about. And another who hasn't a clue. If you shoot a DSLR or for that matter ANY camera in manual mode, and have any knowledge of F stops, sensors, and shutters, it's obvious who knows his stuff and who is making a proper mug of himself. Please God. Don't anybody tell them. It's brilliant reading on a Saturday night.

Ironic that the person who has got so much so totally wrong is accusing me of not knowing what I'm talking about!

Show me a source detailing the size of the G4 sensor vs the Z5

RAW images are identical whether they are captured by a default camera app or a third party one. There would be nothing preventing Sony from pushing a software update that would allow this functionality anyway.

Neither am I

I'm not.

*video stabilisation...yes

Its photo stabilisation appears to be far from impressive! Photos blur far more readily than on competitors phones.

If you want a videography tool, the Z5 is good. Photos? Not so much.

The Z5's stabilisation is the best in any smartphone. The fact that it isn't hardware-based makes it even more impressive.

My good man, you clearly don't know what you are talking about.

- The Z5 does NOT have optical image stabilisation. (You must surely agree now?!)
- Don't confuse the number of megapixels with the SIZE of the sensor. For example, most consumer grade DSLR's have an APS-C SIZE sensor, but have differing numbers of megapixels. A bigger sensor with fewer megapixels is FAR preferable to a smaller sensor with more megapixels. In this instance, the G4 has the same size sensor, with fewer megapixels. This means there is more light hitting each individual pixel on the sensor. This is important as it means the camera can perform better in sub-optimal lighting conditions.
- Third party apps like Camera FV-5 that allow for RAW image capture are not an ideal solution. Reason being; companies like Adobe need RAW image profiles in order to allow end users to properly edit the RAW images. A phone like the G4 that has DNG support by default from LG will almost certainly have much better ongoing support for RAW image profiles. Sony users that try to get RAW photos will have a far from optimal experience....and will probably just stick with the noisy and overprocessed jpegs.
- As for Dx0. All they do is test cameras in full auto. Just how the Z5 did so well I have no idea. Looking around the internet, the Z5 seems to exhibit the usual blur/graininess/noise/watercolour effect that has been synonymous with Xperia cameras for years now. The big point though - switching the G4 to manual allows for far more creativity than the Z5 can ever offer.

I feel like a bit of a broken gramophone here! I am saying the same things...but you don't seem to listen. The Z5 has significant hardware shortcomings that Sony are trying to make up for via software trickery. Default HDR in full auto mode is a terrible decision. It just results in blurry/over processed photos.

The G4 is a better cameraphone. It is also cheaper.

*EDIT - I just noticed that you were the one that posted the deal. Explains a lot :smiley:

Yeah, sure, the website that has tested over 9,000 cameras is irrelevant to those in the photography business... Can you find any other photography website that supports your views?

As for RAW there are dozens of apps on the play store that will produce photos in this format if you wished.

Finally, 16 & 23mp are the sensor sizes. They cannot be the same thing in the same space.

- The Z5 DOES NOT have optical image stabilisation. It has digital image stabilisation.
- Yes, RAW image capture is a software rather than hardware feature. Semantics aside, the Z5 does not have RAW image capture....which means you will NEVER get an image from that phone as seen by the sensor. You will ALWAYS be at the mercy of Sony's processing algorithms.
- The Z5 and the G4 have the same size sensor --- Sony just cram 23MP into the same space. Hence the smaller pixel sites, and the lower light per pixel. That is not a good thing.
- Manual focus on the Z5? That's one bit of good news :wink:
- The G4 still has the F1.8 lens (vs the F2.0 on the Sony)...

Dx0 is not THE photography website. All their photos are taken in full auto....which makes it a largely irrelevant website for photographers that use manual modes.

Anyway....we can discuss this until the cows come home. But according to anecdotal reviews online, the Z5 is suffering from the same stuff its predecessors have suffered from; namely; noise, detail smearing & excessive blur.

I'm not sure why you are seeking to defend the Z5 so much. I can only guess that you have bought it - and are therefore trying to avoid any buyer remorse. But in terms of hardware and software, the G4 outperforms the Z5.

I think you're getting hard and software mixed up. In fact, you're just plain mixed up.

The ability to save a file in RAW format is software.

There is optical image stabilisation on the Z5.

The Z5 has a 23mp sensor, the G4 has 16mp, why are you thinking they're the same size sensor?!?

There is manual focus on the Z5.

As for saying THE photography website that ALL photographers take seriously is pretty irrelevant, well....

There's quite a lot of discussion about lens blur on one side with faulty Z5 compacts which is putting me off.

By the way, an interesting 'real world' user review;

G4 vs Z5;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoTFkqovgok

The G4 seems to be ahead in speed of opening apps, whereas the Z5 edges it in browsing speed & multitasking. As for the cameras....in this guys test (far from scientific), the G4 is quite noticeably better when taking photos, whereas the Z5 is better at videos.
For the money, I reckon the G4 is the better option - particularly for people that will use the manual photo controls. I'm sure people would be happy with either though.

Interestingly, the iPhone 6S seems to beat the Z5 on both images and videos;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBVB_zik9lc

Well getting back on topic, I enquired about this in store today and perhaps stupidly explained my plan. And the guy said I would have to cancel after one month and then give 30 days notice, so would pay two months air time. He mentioned if I cancelled in the first 14 days I would need to return the phone but I'm sure as the OP said it should in theory be possible and maybe it's just they're actively discouraging it, or he didn't really know.

I've already explained MULTIPLE times why the Z5 has a hardware disadvantage.

NO optical image stabilisation
NO DNG RAW
MORE megapixels on the same size sensor = less light per pixel = worse performance in lower light
NO manual focus (at least it doesn't seem to have this)
F2.0 lens vs the F1.8 lens on the G4.

Which part of those things do you not understand? The G4 has significant hardware advantages.

For people that know about photography, the Dx0 results are fairly irrelevant because they are done in full auto mode. You need to get beyond the full auto thing - and look at the actual technical capabilities of each camera system. The G4 is the better camera. It's also £60 cheaper...

The Z5 actually has a F2.0 lens, you're providing more evidence with each post that you're out of you simply don't know what you're talking about. As I said, the G4 should and perhaps does do better than the Z5 in low light conditions.

Please do Google and then try and explain why the Z5 has a hardware disadvantage over the G4...

The comments tally perfectly, one explains the real world methodology Dxomark use, I didn't state that that was why I respected them, that was your failure in comprehension.

Perhaps you could agree to disagree...

My best phone for photography is my Moto G E 2nd edition, as the camera is so crap it forces me to take my Fuji X100 with me.

The Z5 has digital image stabilisation. A very big difference.
The Z5 does not shoot in RAW mode. A very big difference
The Z5 has an F1.9 lens - which takes in less light than the F1.8 lens on the G4. Not a big difference...but a difference nonetheless
The Z5 has far more megapixels on the same size sensor. Less light per pixel = a big difference.

Your comment about 'more backlight blur meaning less detail' is nonsense. If that were the case, then please explain to me why the F1.8 lens Sony RX100 is rated SO highly?! Bokeh is not a bad thing. Noise and poor low light performance on the other hand....THAT is a bad thing.

On a hardware level, the Z5 is at a significant disadvantage to the G4. Software trickery and algorithms can only bridge so much of the divide.

The important bit that you are not listening to; in a photographers hands, the G4 is MUCH the better choice. Manual focus, optical stabilisation, & DNG RAW. These are things the Z5 cannot do.

Also - how do your following two comments tally with one another?

"Dxomark tested both the Z5 and the g4 using the default out of the box settings, the z5 was the superior camera, what's more real world performance than that?"

"Dxomark are a photography website, that's why photographers value it. I didn't say I valued it because they shoot in auto mode. Clearly reading comprehension is an issue for you. "

Don't criticise me for a 'lack of comprehension' ability when your own comments are at odds with one another!!!

If full auto is your bag, then stick with Dx0. If you want to really understand a cameras capabilities, you'll have to cast your research net a little further :wink:

Dxomark are a photography website, that's why photographers value it. I didn't say I valued it because they shoot in auto mode. Clearly reading comprehension is an issue for you. I stated that by using the same methodology for all tests, they are able to ensure consistency.

I don't think you understand lenses at all! The lower the F number the more light is taken in, not the higher! More light entering the lens means more backlight blur, meaning less detailed photos during daylight shoots.

The Z5 does have optical image stabilisation, simply put, the G4 does not beat the Z5, that's why nobody other than yourself is claiming it does.

However if you're going to continue googling photos and using that as a basis of making an informed decision good luck to you.

I don't know crap about cameras and generally just use my phone in auto mode. but I'm really enjoying this thread between dead4red69 and wentoabetterplace :smile:

@Dead4red69


"The only thing the G4 has is better low light photography due to the F1.8 lens. Of course this means poorer photos in normal light conditions, but hey ho."

I assume you actually understand what is happening when an F number increases?!!! It is allowing more light to the sensor (meaning you can shoot with lower isos and/or higher shutter speeds without causing unwanted noise).
The optical image stabilisation effectively takes the F stop even lower -- giving you even more range to take photos in challenging conditions. The lower megapixel/larger pixel pitch also means much more light is hitting each individual pixel site...meaning, once again, that there is more scope to take photos in more challenging conditions....

NONE of those things affect daytime shooting. But they all greatly enhance the kind of photos that smartphones are usually terrible at taking (i.e, nightime/low light photos). Also, if you like the 'bokeh' effect, then an F1.8 lens will give you even more pronounced bokeh.

I'm not sure why we are still discussing this. You have already admitted that you value Dx0 because its results are based on shooting in full auto. Any photographer worth their salt would be looking beyond the full auto mode. & for those that do, the G4 comprehensively beats the Z5 on a hardware level....and this is born out in the sample photos I have seen across the web.

If you are happy with your Z5, then that's all good. But please let's not try and say that Dx0 is THE determiner of a good camera...because they quite clearly are not.

If you want to learn about what makes the G4 impressive from an actual photographer;

http://www.colbybrownphotography.com/gear-review-a-photographers-take-on-the-lg-g4/

The only thing the G4 has is better low light photography due to the F1.8 lens. Of course this means poorer photos in normal light conditions, but hey ho.

Perhaps when you use either of these phones your opinion will mean more?

You cannot claim that I don't know what I am talking about when you are basing your entire logic on the results of Dx0....who, by your own admission (and mine), shoot EVERYTHING in full auto.

I guess you have bought the Z5 on the strength of its camera - and that is why you are being so defensive. After all, why spend £60 more on a phone when the cheaper option (the G4) performs better?!

If you really want to get creative, and take the best possible photos on an Android smartphone, then the G4 is where it is at. The optical image stabilisation, F1.8 lens, lower megapixel/larger pixel pitch & DNG RAW all combine to give much greater flexibility in lower light. & when it comes down to it, performance in low light really does differentiate the good cameras from the great.

Enjoy your Z5.

It's such a pity you don't know what you're talking about. Try learning about real photography rather than using Google to research for you.

Thank you for explaining what you value in a camera. That is the fundamental basis for why you think this Z5 is the best, whereas I do not.
The Z5 *may* be better in full auto (highly doubtful given the watercolour effect/detail smearing that I have seen in a myriad of sample photos)....but for a proper photographer, it isn't nearly as flexible or capable as the G4.
Optical image stabilisation, an F1.8 lens, fewer megapixels/bigger pixel pitch --- ALL of these things help the G4 to take cleaner/less processed photos than the Z5. Add in DNG raw & manual focus, and you can see why the G4 is the better cameraphone.
But don't get me wrong - if full auto is your bag, then the Z5 will probably be a good option. I still think - even in full auto - that the G4 takes the better photographs. The G4's manual mode just amplifies the gulf between the two phones.

Z5 advantages for me personally are wrist strap eyelet, sounds silly but reduces chances of dropping and breaking. More importantly the fast access camera button and seemingly best of all phones video stabilisation.

Dxomark tested both the Z5 and the g4 using the default out of the box settings, the z5 was the superior camera, what's more real world performance than that?

Thanks for your help. still on the fence tbh. Feels alot of cash.

Yes. Request it via the automated service;

https://www.o2.co.uk/apps/help/help?qid=1&q1=2&route=unlocking&case=Handset%20Unlocking%20Form

Thank you, is the unlock code free?

Okay, so as long as i am inside the cooling off period i can cancel airtime straight away? I plan to cancel it as soon as i buy it, is this possible?

Interesting how you take what Dx0 say as gospel....yet give no credence to real world performance.
Also, common sense would dictate that an F1.8 optically stabilised lens with fewer megapixels would perform better than an F1.9 non optically stabilised lens with more pixels! Algorithms and what not can only create so much magic.
More to the point, does the Z5 do DNG RAW? & does it have full manual controls?!
Dx0 do all their tests under full auto. Switch a G4 to DNG manual, and it'll likely be a good amount better than the Z5.
£60 cheaper too.

They are wrong. You only need to give 30 days notice to cancel airtime if you are over the 14 day cooling off period. Even I know that after a couple hours researching o2 deals, so the staff member is either incompetent or trying to discourage it.

I just got of chat with o2 they gave the the strong impression that you at least have to pay one airtime bill. This would still make the phone around £20 cheaper than clove but not worth the hassle in my opinion. Any opinions?

SUMANTIKA: I haven’t heard from you in a while. Are you still there?
CUSTOMER: yes, just bare with me i;m looking at what i'd like, thannks
SUMANTIKA: Okay
CUSTOMER: I would be interested in this
CUSTOMER: Airtime Plan 24 month contract 20GB data 4G ready Unlimited texts Unlimited minutes
SUMANTIKA: Thanks for the info
SUMANTIKA: Do you have existing Pay Monthly contract with us ?
CUSTOMER: However I would like to cancel the airtime plan and just pay of the monthly cost of £15 outright totaling £360 is this ossible?
SUMANTIKA: To cancel the airtime plan you need to pay off the total phone plan
CUSTOMER: Yes i would be happy to do this. So if i bought the phone and airtime. Paid off the phone plan instantly and cancelled the airtime would this be okay?
SUMANTIKA: Yes that's fine
CUSTOMER: I have heard reports that people have had trouble cancelling the airtime with o2, as long as it's okay then this is what i will do?
SUMANTIKA: You need to give 30 days notice to cancel the airtime plan
SUMANTIKA: When you're paying off the phone cost to cancel the airtime plan you need to finish the entire contract, so you need to give 30 days notice to cancel the contract
CUSTOMER: Okay, assuming i gave the 30 days notice right away would i pay any airtime at all?
SUMANTIKA: You can give 30 days notice after first bill only.
SUMANTIKA: Your first bill would come out 14-18 days after you receive your package. After that, you can arrange a more convenient date with customer services if you want.
CUSTOMER: okay, so I would have to make at least one payment on the airtime? Or is it possible to pay zero on the airtime?
SUMANTIKA: Yes you need to pay atleast one month bill.
SUMANTIKA: No there's no option to pay 0 airtime plan
SUMANTIKA: And our phones are locked with O2, you can't use any other SIM in it before you unlock it
CUSTOMER: Okay, thank you for your time and patience.
SUMANTIKA: You're most welcome

Thanks for the quick reply, I've voted hot and might see how I get on with a staff member tomorrow.

Can you do all this same day in store? Or do you have to order or cancel online / on phone?

Dxomark know what they're doing, they're photography experts. Check the thread on xda if in doubt.

Dx0Mark apply arbitrary scores that frequently don't correspond with real world results. They have frequently rated Sony cameraphones highly - only for them to be very poor in real life.
At least with GSMArena, you can see the exact same photo taken with a myriad of cameras. & on that evidence, the Z5 displays all of the detail smearing that they are (in)famous for!
If it has a DNG RAW mode, then that could certainly help its cause. But I don't think it does. It also has an F1.9 lens vs the F1.8 of the G4, & no OIS.
The Z5 relies on algorithms and software trickery...whereas the G4 has significant hardware advantages that are reflect in the photos on GSMArena.
If you bought this phone, then I am sure the camera is good. But I very much doubt it is better than the G4.

I'm currently having similar issues after they've lost my phone - sent my Z1 compact back and it developed a crack on the inside (no it hadn't been dropped and was kept in a case mate tough case with heavy duty screen protector). They fixed it then the delivery company lost it and it's taken ages to get them to send me a replacement - I'm still waiting over a month after it was initially sent to them., The phone has been a nightmare and the customer service a nightmare.

Because by your own admission you don't own any of the handsets yet feel qualified to make sweeping statements about their capability.

Dxomark is a highly respected photography website, GSMArena is not, I know who I'd trust more about a camera.

I still don't understand where this comment came from;

"Random hukd person vs respected website..."

GSMArena is respected - and that test is a pretty good gauge of the performance of those cameraphones in full auto mode. The G4 jumps a good amount above that when switched to full manual DNG RAW mode...

I don't own any of those phones - and I have no bias. But I seriously doubt any Sony claim about camera supremacy on their phones. They have time and again overpromised and underdelivered.

If the Z5 has a DNG RAW mode with full manual focus, then it may be a contender. But assuming it doesn't, the G4 is THE cameraphone for Android photographers. It has OIS too, and a F1.8 lens...

I have, it's a flawed comparison. There is a thread dedicated to this over on xda where anyone with professional photography knowledge is praising the Z5 capabilities.

Best phone I've ever had is my z1. You can't say many smart phone with such powerful processing power and a large screen can go 3 days with no charge at the high frequency I use it...

Did you bother opening the GSMArena link?!
They have stock photos from a whole myriad of cameraphones released over the last few years. Choose the phones in the drop down boxes, then compare the results in the various photos.
Do that, and you'll see that the Z5 has horrible detail smearing - and is definitely eclipsed by the G4, and even the iPhone 6S.
(Sony talk the talk with smartphone cameras - but reality never matches the hype).

Random hukd person vs respected website...

Yep, you're obviously the person the whole of the Internet really trusts.

Please do share the photos you've taken yourself with a z5c that supports your opinion.

In other words they say it is rated waterproof but actually if u put it in water and it fails then it's your problem and won't cover you.

Sent my phone back as it wasn't waterproof and died. Item was damaged in post and Sony refused to take any responsibility (website does not say anything about damage in post). Luckily I had pictures of the phone before I sent it which showed no damage. Worst RMA experience I've dealt with

And this http://www.techtimes.com/articles/91719/20151006/sony-xperia-z5-compact-overheating-issues-could-lead-to-unresponsive-touch-screen.htm
Really want this phone but these articles putting me off :neutral_face:

There are no waterproofing issues.

I've got this phone. to look at it isn't much different than previous generations. but truth is everything is different. improved processor, improved camera, excellent finger print scanner.
the "2 day battery life" is very optimistic.. if your heavy user then you'll need to charge daily.
does it heat up... yes when playing games and using camera. it's not that bad that it'll crack glass..

I got mine for 300 staff.. I'm very happy with it

Only 360!!!

it's a good price but I personally would go to cpw and get the refresh contract from them with a unlocked phone and without the O2 startup logo etc etc

DXO - the same website that consistently reviews Xperia phones as being the best, only for the real world results to prove VERY different.

Have a little chew on this;

http://www.gsmarena.com/piccmp.php3?idType=3&idPhone1=7242&idPhone2=6901&idPhone3=7535

iPhone 6S, LG G4 & Z5.

I would be amazed if you said the Z5 was the best!

As usual with Sony's post processing, their photos have the watercolour/detail smearing effect. The G4 outperforms it in pretty much all parts of those photos

(How's that humble pie tasting? :stuck_out_tongue: )

Enjoy eating your humble pie....

http://www.dxomark.com/Mobiles/Sony-Xperia-Z5-Mobile-review-Best-mobile-photo-video-scores-to-date

Price has gone up. I cant get it £15 a month for handset. Coming up as £20 for me

I very much doubt Sony hold the crown of best smartphone camera. Sony phone cameras are always sub par - regardless of the specifications or their marketing.

Also, the Sony F2 lens with no optical image stabilisation is v.unlikely to outperform the sixth generation OIS unit in the Lumia 950. That has an F1.9 lens too.

It'll be a decent camera. But nothing more.

​ah ok....my apologies, thought you had to take it on contract too. oops.

Here are some sample images in low light for you guys to compare.

Image samples

Apparently overheating issues are with the white coloured phones

Surprised that the new Sony still haven't included Optical Image Stabilisation (OIS) in the Z5 series. Not sure whether to make the jump now.

cold.. mileading title

I've a Z1 compact still, much difference?

Actually it has a frosted glass back

I have had much success with O2 Refresh.

I bought a total of 4 Lumia 1020 64GB editions last year. (the first 2 cost me £130 each after cashback, and the other two came to around £70 - plus some free camera grips too).

The cancellation process isn't the most reliable. I had to pay out the full price of the phone AND call plan on two of those phones because O2's automated system messed up. So make sure you have plenty of funds in your bank account - and anticipate a potential 14 day turnaround where you will have lost a big wedge of money to O2.

Definitely worth the effort though assuming the savings on this handset are sizeable. The 1020's I bought were absolute giveaway prices...so it definitely made sense for me

Plastic (yes the c models backs are plastic not glass) simply doesn't crack due to heat. Z1's are glass backed.

I think you need to choose the 20GB plan instead, shows as £15 p/m for the handset, and £34 p/m for the airtime plan.

Really, really tempted by this - but unsure as the G4 is a fair bit cheaper.

When people say 'it's no longer waterproof', how do you know? Or are you assuming because the back is cracked? I'm on my 3rd back for my z3c. And on my 2nd z3c as turns out the first one (with unbroken back) wasn't waterproof. Replaced the backs myself with bits from eBay. I'm not sure if it's still waterproof or not... not really prepared to try it!

The Xperia Z range are great phones.

Had the original Z and never had an issue, I'm a carpenter and it lasted through being on site for the whole contract right up to just before my upgrade when I slightly cracked the corner of the screen (dropped).

Currently have the Z3, a large improvement on the Z and I have had no issues.

My better half has the Z3C and she has no issues either, no sign of overheating.

Maybe we've been lucky but all seems well.

Good price for the phone if you're willing to fight your corner with O2 if they play around on paying it off. Heat.

I'm struggling to find this, the £49 10Gb plan shows the phone portion as £20/month...

good deal, love my Z2. only issue I had was a faulty LCD which slowly started to turn yellow which Sony replaced. and it's no longer waterproof but that's because I dropped it and shattered the glass on the back. great piece of kit though.

​yes. Im very careful with my phone and have never dropped it. when I spoke to sony they were aware of my issue, there are a lot of folk if you Google it. apparently the z1 was on watchdog because it cracked when overheating aswel

You honestly believe that the cracks were caused by overheating?

Rubbish!

My z3 compact is about to go back for it's second repair. Isn't waterproof and not reliable. Sony service aren't good either, and very difficult to actually contact.
Wouldn't have another sony.

Not really, get more freedom with your contract buying it outright here.

so it's £360 for the phone? surely it's cheaper sticking with the contract as you'll need a plan anyways if you bought it outright?

I don't get how this deal works... Can someone break down the costs to show me how it works out as £360

Nice price. Just be wary of overheating and waterproofing issues. Not sure if the rumours have any substance but best to Google yourself. I've been thinking twice about upgrading my z3c because of the stories.

Ok, just looked, the answer is **** all really. For all that money too. Nutty.

It's easy enough to flash generic firmware if the o2 start up logo was that much of an issue.

Refresh is only directly from O2. Go careful though. Plenty of people have been stung with drawn out sagas when trying to cancel. Some have even had poor credit scores because of "unpaid bills".

Oh I thought they do O2 contracts

cpw don't can't do refresh deals as far as I know.