Nah. Nobody would accept £10,500 for their 36m old Sportage 3 Nav in part exchange, and no dealer will sell one for anywhere near as little as £13,000. You are using VW economics to try and understand how sensible brands work.
The cheapest '62 plate '3 nav' is £15,000 by the way, they appear to rise to a little over £16,000;
You really do try to 'fudge' these things, don't you?
ezzer72
4 Nov 15#66
Hahaha, you really do live in cloud cuckoo land mate - you'll be telling us that £50 mats are worth £75 at trade in time next - your dealer takes you for a ride every time.
Anyway, I'd forgotten all about this thread, wasn't deliberately not replying - I just popped back to say it would seem I'm right AGAIN, VW have today announced they have been cheating with their petrol cars too, just like I said.
And I'm not talking about NOX, they have admitted to cheating relating to CO2 on petrols and diesels.
Junk.
ezzer72
25 Oct 151#62
GT hasn't been out 3 years yet, so I have no idea what it's value will be. I'd be astonished if you'll buy a non-wreck for £7500 though.
I can confirm however that Kia use PCP properly, in my opinion/experience at least, and set it up so you will have decent equity at the end of the term - guess what, that makes it likely people will buy another Kia.
A Sportage 3 Sat Nav on 36m/10k per annum usually generates a GFV of around £8500-£9000. Please provide a link where a three year old one can be bought for that, +/- 10% of course...
The opposite of this is what happens with VW/Audi/BMW/Mini (and Citroen/Peugeot to be fair). GFV's are set high to enable the 'posh' cars to have cheap monthly payments, and people end up nailed into them with negative equity right up until the end, when there may be a few bob of equity, if they are lucky.
So GFV most certainly isn't a standard 10% rule of thumb thing - you are not in the industry, I am.
When making the GTi/GT comparison, you remembered the 16bhp power difference, but didn't tell everyone that the Cee'd engine is almost 25% smaller. I can't believe you have the audacity to talk about fuel consumption and tax bandings under the current circumstances - unbelievable.
And you seem very confident that VW's demand will stay high - haha, good luck with that.
monkeyhanger75 to ezzer72
26 Oct 15#64
I have always got at least 10% more than GFV on every VW I have traded in, most of the time it is 15%, and negotiated a 12% discount on the new one, in line with what I could get from a broker, and the VW garage will still make a fair bit on the p/x. Car sellers need to make money on every car they sell - they're not a charitable trust. They all need to give you some equity to entice you back - no equity and you're more likely to shop around. That Kia is worth more in p/x at a Kia dealership than at a Mazda one, so you might not get that equity if you change marque.
I'm sure you work the same way at Kia, that GT has a £7500 GFV, someone gets offered £8500 in p/x and then you put it on the used forecourt for £11k, willing to be knocked down £500-1000. So no, no one buys a 3 year old Ceed GT for £7500, they will probably buy it for £10.5k from you, having made £2k on it.
There seems to be plenty of 62 plate 30k miler Sportage 3 1.7CRDIs about with a sticker price of about £14k. So you take your £9k GFV, give them £10.5k in p/x against the next one and put it up for £14k, willing to accept £13k.
Yes that Ceed GT is 25% smaller on the displacement than a Golf GTI, that should make it more frugal - works for most car companies.
On a petrol car there are no NOx issues (not even VW TFSIs)- if you understood rudimentary mechanical engineering, chemistry and thermodynamics you'd understand why petrol engines don't generate NOx like diesels (all diesels) do. You need very high temperatures, pressure and a big excess of air to produce NOx from the air the engine sucks in.
Diesel combusts at around 800C under far higher pressures than petrol cars generate. Petrol is sparked at about 130C and peak cylinder temp is about 250C, the cylinder pressure can be 4x less in a petrol than a diesel, a combination of 2/3 the compression ratio and much lower temp (ever heard of Boyles law?) - not enough temp, pressure and excess air to make meaningful amounts of NOx in a petrol engine. On the other hand, CO2 generated is directly proportional to the fuel consumption. If we were taxed on our cars based on NOx emissions, petrol cars would be far more popular.
monkeyhanger75 to ezzer72
26 Oct 15#65
I have always got at least 10% more than GFV on every VW I have traded in, most of the time it is 15%, and negotiated a 12% discount on the new one, in line with what I could get from a broker, and the VW garage will still make a fair bit on the p/x. Car sellers need to make money on every car they sell - they're not a charitable trust. They all need to give you some equity to entice you back - no equity and you're more likely to shop around. That Kia is worth more in p/x at a Kia dealership than at a Mazda one, so you might not get that equity if you change marque.
I'm sure you work the same way at Kia, that GT has a £7500 GFV, someone gets offered £8500 in p/x and then you put it on the used forecourt for £11k, willing to be knocked down £500-1000. So no, no one buys a 3 year old Ceed GT for £7500, they will probably buy it for £10.5k from you, having made £2k on it.
There seems to be plenty of 62 plate 30k miler Sportage 3 1.7CRDIs about with a sticker price of about £14k. So you take your £9k GFV, give them £10.5k in p/x against the next one and put it up for £14k, willing to accept £13k.
Yes that Ceed GT is 25% smaller on the displacement than a Golf GTI, that should make it more frugal - works for most car companies.
On a petrol car there are no NOx issues (not even VW TFSIs)- if you understood rudimentary mechanical engineering, chemistry and thermodynamics you'd understand why petrol engines don't generate NOx like diesels (all diesels) do. You need very high temperatures, pressure and a big excess of air to produce NOx from the air the engine sucks in.
Diesel combusts at around 800C under far higher pressures than petrol cars generate. Petrol is sparked at about 130C and peak cylinder temp is about 250C, the cylinder pressure can be 4x less in a petrol than a diesel, a combination of 2/3 the compression ratio and much lower temp (ever heard of Boyles law?) - not enough temp, pressure and excess air to make meaningful amounts of NOx in a petrol engine. On the other hand, CO2 generated is directly proportional to the fuel consumption. If we were taxed on our cars based on NOx emissions, petrol cars would be far more popular.
So you want to throw an argument in without inviting a comeback?
For your extra £4k spent you will get better brakes, the ACC system (radar based active cruise control, will also warn you if the car in front jumps on the brakes, then brake if you still don't react), the Golf is 0.8s quicker to 62mph, more frugal, 85Nm more torque, more BHP, equipment inside and out look comparable on both, the GTI gets a few things the Kia doesn't and vice versa. You spend £4k more on the GTI, but will see a GFV £6k higher at 3 years old. That will translate to a likely p/x difference of £6500. You will get all of your extra spend back and then some.
ezzer72
25 Oct 15#63
And whilst I truly can't be bothered going through the 'Build your Golf' thingy, I'd imagine that the GTi at 'just' £4k extra will be somewhat lacking in equipment, and is probably £30,000+ to have comparable spec. This is just a hunch, please don't feel the need to elaborate on it.
monkeyhanger75
25 Oct 15#61
Just had a look at a Kia Ceed GT - when is a cheap car not a cheap car? When the depreciation is shocking - £23605 new, GFV at 3 years old is £7522.80. That's 31.8% of the initial RRP retained at 3 years old. It might be £4k less than a Golf GTI, but is 16bhp down on it, yet is 20% thirstier on paper and dearer to tax, where is the upside?
So GFV isn't exactly what you'll get offered in p/x, but it's representative of what to expect - GFV + 10% "equity" to hook you into another. That cheaper car with poor residuals will cost you a lot more than the dearer one with far better residuals. Supply and demand dictates residuals, seems that no-one wants a 3 year old Ceed GT unless it is very cheap.
ezzer72
25 Oct 15#59
You never got back to us about how your Dad's Golf was trouble free, but your 8 VW's weren't by the way - could you please? Cheers :smiley:
monkeyhanger75 to ezzer72
25 Oct 15#60
If you want the full rundown of my VWs bought from new....
1999 VW Polo 1.4TDI - a small seam with split stitching on the back seat that was missed at PDI and discovered by me when I scotchgarded the interior cloth a few days into ownership.
2001 VW Polo 1.9TDI - The turbo was a little temperamental after 6k miles, one in 10 ignition cycles it was not working, and the turbo was replaced. My dad had the car off me for what I was offered in p/x on my next one and drove it to 84k miles with not a bit of further bother.
2005 VW Golf 140TDI GT - nothing wrong with this one at all, except cosmetic corrosion ("whiteworm") on the diamond cut alloys, all replaced no bother. It's a common defect across all marques when diamond cut alloys are used - i prefer painted ones.
2007 VW Golf 170TDI GT - the first VW engine with a DPF. In the first week the DPF was filling up and wouldn't clear. The techs thought it might be a leaking injector and found a tiny burr on the cylinder head interior, and replaced it, thinking that was the cause. A week later the DPF issues were still happening and after consultation with the Fatherland a software update was applied and the issue was never seen again. a few days after that my 412 mile old Golf was clouted by a bus when parked up - I found the car 12 feet away from where I parked it up. The bus driver did not stop but a kind soul took down the details and it was repaired - badly, and re-repaired, and re-repaired. I hated the car after that and chopped it in for a 2009 Scirocco 140TDI.
Scirocco 140TDI GT - great car, a real head turner back then when there were few around and the other car makers hadn't yet cloned it, only trouble was I was that desperate to get shot of the badly repaired Golf, I didn't have the patience to wait for the 170TDI to be released. Not a thing wrong with it at all in the time I had it.
2011 VW Scirocco 170TDI - a little blip with the DCC controller that played up a little in the coldest winter in ages. After the car warmed up the fault was cleared on the next ignition cycle.
2013 Golf GTD - great car, lots of kit, good output, good mpg, **** initial traction because VW decided to shoe it with Bridgestones - how Bridgestones are considered a premium tyre manufacturer is beyond me. Average dry grip and abysmal wet grip, relatively hardwearing - no way in the world I would ever buy a Bridgestone tyre with my own money. Only thing wrong with it was the goosed front shock mount bearings - the dealer had forgotten to remove one of the 3 sets of transport pucks the car ships with. Not really VW's fault.
Now i'm in a VW Golf R, and it is an amazing car to drive, if a little thirstier than i'm used to (although 32mpg i'm getting is 80% of published combined figure.
So there you are, my warts and all VW history. Never had a VW break down on me, all pretty minor issues fixed under warranty. Every defect I have had has occurred within year 1 of ownership - isn't that what warranty is for?
ezzer72
25 Oct 15#58
And I get accused of being silly.
i40
Vivaro
ezzer72
25 Oct 15#57
Can we make that 'the EXPERIENCED and knowledgable Harbinger of VW doom' please?
No doubt you'll accuse me of buying that off eBay, but it was actually in a drawer in one of my spare bedrooms.
p.s. when did I ever defend Vauxhalls? I may have said that they were at least honestly priced compared to some of your 'junk of choice', but I have no love for them at all.
p.p.s. I don't drive a 7k bland pensioner wagon - there are genuinely good cars out there, if you open your mind and take a proper look
ezzer72
25 Oct 15#56
As they say, YOU learn something new every day - you clearly wasn't aware of this, or you wouldn't have made this glaring error, and if my say. embarrassed yourself.
Haha, so, it's the kind of thing that an expensive masterpiece of German engineering should have, but not a cheap and nasty Korean 'granny' car?
I'm struggling to see the point you are desperately trying to make?
monkeyhanger75
25 Oct 15#55
The Harbinger of VW doom. If you believed everything he said, we'd all be driving bland £7k pensioner wagons. Funnily enough he won't have a word said against Vauxhalls.
monkeyhanger75
25 Oct 15#54
When you drive a Kia it feels cheaper than it's competition. Drive an Audi A4 or BMW 3 series then jump into an i40 and you can tell the difference. That difference might not be worth the extra to you, but it is there, you are getting something for that extra cash spent. The i40's interior made a Ford Mondeo's look plush - with it's moulded stitching on the faux-leather door pulls that were fooling no-one. The dash looked a lot like the one on our Vauxhall Vivaro van at work.
monkeyhanger75
25 Oct 15#53
Yes I know - nothing under 120ps in fact. I was using it as an example of one of many possible pieces of equipment that can enhance your drive that isn't standard across the board but is far more likely on a dearer car than a cheaper car. It's things like that which bump up the price of a car that looks a lot like another which is noticeably cheaper, and to look at the car it's fitment isn't obvious.
ezzer72
25 Oct 15#52
Maybe not quite ALL, but I certainly wouldn't risk buying one - nor should you if you have any sense.
markymark34
25 Oct 15#51
Now you're just being stupid. All DSG boxes do not blow up.
ezzer72
25 Oct 15#50
Last one for now as it's just too easy :smiley:
Here's what happens when VW try to be smart and fit 'clever' things like multi-link (and some other random faults for good measure);
I'll keep saying it until you get it - VW are scammers, there really isn't anything remarkable about what they do - except for the inflated prices.
carleast
24 Oct 152#45
Hyundai and Kia got voted the world's two most reliable manufacturers in 2015. So that should put any discussion of build quality to bed. I owned a Kia for 3 years and never had a single issue. Got a BMW this year and it's nothing but trouble.
monkeyhanger75 to carleast
25 Oct 15#47
Did you use the "dark net" to find that stat? That would take a lot of effort to pull those stats together, and with so many variables - those churning out bare-bones cars to a relatively poor mass market are likely to be more reliable. The reliability of a spartan £1500 Nano in India is of no concern to me.
When I google for "worldwide car reliability 2015" or "worlds most reliable car manufacturer 2015" I get nothing. I get plenty of stats for the UK, where the Japanese dominate, with the odd spattering of everything else in the top 20.
In the top 20 of the link below there 3 VAG cars and 2 Kia/Hyundai group cars, and surprisingly there's a Land Rover at no 21 (aren't the wheels supposed to fall off those as soon as you're 2 miles from the garage you bought it from according to some?)!
When you look at that link, the reliability% score between No1 at 98.81 and No 100 at 93.01 isn't exactly huge - we're not seeing cars 20 times more likely to fail on average compared to others as Ezzer would have you believe.
monkeyhanger75
25 Oct 15#46
Not saying money saving is bad - if you're looking at a £15k car and a £10k car and you only want to spend £10k, will you put up with the lack of things like multilink rear suspension or a nicer interior? It will still get you there, i'd prioritise interior comfort far more on a car pounding the motorway than a school run/shopping trolley car.
VW money saving that is obvious to me is limited to the fact that they no longer put the clear coat on the paintwork that can't be seen (like tucked right up in the interior of the wings that you can see if you look hard enough with the front door open. You might be looking to mention the water pump that is built to last 90k miles, but that's just common sense - it runs off the timing belt/chain, and if it seizes then your timing belt/chain is going to stretch or snap. It's a preventative measure, to stop something far worse happening should the water pump fail - knowing how long you expect a component to last and requesting it's replacement after that time is responsible maintenance planning.
Most older cars fail mechanically due to poor maintenance - plenty of people don't want to pay out £200 on a service for a car worth £1500, and plenty are loathed to pay £300 for a much needed timing belt.
ezzer72
24 Oct 15#44
I actually agree with this (although you are making the cars sound bad, when they truly aren't). The important difference though is that you CAN'T see where VW et al have saved money, but they still have, and it's trick that your kind fall for.
This is fact, I have first hand experience 'behind the scenes' at VW, and this is the reason why the cars are so shamefully fragile.
BigBen75020
24 Oct 15#43
good price, Wat the annual milage allowed hahhahahah. I know I joke. hot
Believe what you want but it is a well known fact that the DSG gearbox is problematic.
ezzer72
24 Oct 15#39
Well the chief's of Kia and Hyundai have both categorically stated that they haven't, and have written declarations to that effect - I don't think they would be daft enough to do that if they were going to be found out...
I like the way that VW have only been busted for their diesels so far - I GUARANTEE that we'll find out they were at something similar with their petrol cars too, wait and see...
All 8 of your VW's have had faults, but your Dad's 'example' car didn't. Hmmm, okay.
The German refinement is all in your (and other 'mugs') heads - I'll grant you the performance thing, though other nations have managed better, pro-rata.
The market share isn't tiny - admittedly, it's smaller than VW's, just as every manufacturer's is. We will of course see a change in this pattern from now onwards, now as VW have admitted to being lying, cheating scumbags.
Greggs have the largest market share in their field too. Discuss.
And yes, you make a fair point about the poaching, just as long as they keep to styling and tuning and don't start suggesting plastic engine components it'll be all good in the hood.
monkeyhanger75
24 Oct 15#38
I'm sure it'll get out that all the marques were at it, but the yanks won't go out of their way to investigate and implicate one of their own (Ford, Chrysler etc) - most of the EU5 compliant diesels across the marques have similar levels of quoted CO2/NOx/Output per displacement/mpg.
Worlds luckiest man that every other VW ever sold has blown up except his? Backed up by the words of a car salesman as gospel.
There's a variety of reasons why Kia occupy a certain small segment in the UK market, They have a long warranty (built into the price) and they're cheap. You get nothing for nothing though - in that cheap Kia you can see where money has been saved. They are not offering German levels of refinement and performance for pennies - you get what you pay for in the new car market - a £10k car is noticeably a £10k car when sat next to a £15k car.
They are trying to look like German cars though and poaching executives from German manufacturers, so the Germans must be doing something right by the Koreans.
ezzer72
24 Oct 15#37
We've talked about your Dad being the World's luckiest man before. You have also rammed down our throats the amazing technology VW have that gives incredibly low emissions vs. horsepower.
You were kinda right with that :wink:
Anyway, the scandal isn't over yet, so get back in your box for a while.
monkeyhanger75
24 Oct 15#36
Yes, it definitely will - one day my dad's old MK5 Golf 170TDI GT (traded in 2 years ago with 123k miles on it and never having missed a beat) will go bang - but if it's after someone has done another 123k miles in it then it would have done ok. He's done over 400k miles between 4 VW DSGs he's owned from new, and not had any gearbox problems.
You will find that with the VAG DSG, if anything is going to go then it's the mechatronic unit and even then it's a rare event that'll generally happen within the first year of ownership, well within warranty. If you look on the net for an issue you'll always find that 1 person that had an issue with their product, but not the hundreds that had no issue. If you're prepared to spout random threads from honest John or whoever, you'll find people with all marques have issues.
Can you honestly say that all Kias and Hyundais will get to 11 years old without issues either?
Most Kias are tiny pensioner shopping trolleys with a dearth of equipment to go wrong, do tiny mileages and never get driven to half their potential. My best mate's 77 year old dad has just sold his 14 year old Micra and my mate raves about how reliable it has been. It gets an oil change and air filter change every year, new spark plugs every other year and has done 26k miles from new. I'd be disappointed if it had been troublesome. He has just bought a new Kia Picanto. If he lives to be 100 and still has that car it'll likely not do 20k miles. Would that make it super reliable next to a 15 year old BMW 320d with 200k miles on the clock when something big goes wrong?
samjac26
24 Oct 151#35
Of course not that would be silly :smile:
I'm just saying (my own experience) the dual clutch gearbox in my car is 11 years old and has been trouble free.
ReflexReact
24 Oct 15#34
I own a BMW 1 series and a Hyundai IX35
The IX35 is 3 years old and has a clutch issue that Hyundai refuse to acknowledge. The electrics in the car are also pants. Radio doesn't work properly, air con often does its own thing. Drive itself is nice.
Incidentally my 9 year old 1 series now needs a new timing chain/or hopefully tensioner.
Moral of the story, cars go wrong. But Hyundai does seem to have a lot of faults for a 3 year old car. Probably wouldn't buy another BMW or Hyundai.
bilbob
24 Oct 151#33
Disclsure: I don't own a german car. I do own an auto though, good old fashioned TC auto in a mondeo.
No trouble from car or gear box in 140k so far.
ezzer72
24 Oct 15#32
So you are honestly trying to say that your 11 year old Golf has had NO PROBLEMS WHATSOEVER?
ezzer72
24 Oct 15#31
Whilst you are right that most phrases will turn up something in Google, only German car owners ever seem to have to make these excuses.
samjac26
24 Oct 15#30
I can only speak for my own experience, but I have 2 VAG DSGs (11 year old golf GT TDI and a 1 year old a6) and they are both trouble free and perform excellently.
I think the poorer system used in some cars is a single automated clutch, this deal is for a dual clutch of which I have found (in the VAG variant) to be good.
Seems like a good deal for the money they are asking - the depreciation over 3-5 years in real terms (actual cost rather than percentage) must be low too.
bilbob
24 Oct 15#29
Google 'flying ant plague' and you'll think the world is facing insect apocalypse.
The whole internet knows that if you google anything, it MUST be true. Therefore , it likely isn't.
Sharpharp
24 Oct 15#12
Good car, good price, very bad build quality
Tallyho to Sharpharp
24 Oct 151#13
Nothing wrong with the build quality of the new generation of Hyundai cars, along with KIA they are as good as most mainstream manufacturers.
ELVIS_THE_PELVIS to Sharpharp
24 Oct 15#28
E
Please explian 're build quality
ezzer72
24 Oct 15#27
It may well be a bit faster etc., but wait until it goes bang, and it DEFINITELY will.
markymark34
24 Oct 15#26
No idea about this dsg box but the newer vag box is superb. Better mpg, faster and effortless. I'll not be going back to a manual.
Tallyho
24 Oct 151#25
Google DSG gearbox problems & open your eyes to a lot of aggravation with them in a lot of countries.
Enforced recalls in America, Australia amongst many.
The fact your gearboxes have been fine is a rare occurence apparently.
paul399
24 Oct 15#19
Don't Hyundai's (and Kia's) have some issue with stalling and the diesel fuel system in cold weather?
ezzer72 to paul399
24 Oct 15#24
No, not really, about 3 Sportages I think, nothing like the VW Group epidemics.
ezzer72
24 Oct 15#23
I do hope that extra little bit of mpg (probably a lie from them anyway) counters all of the associated hugely expensive repair bills that DSG's attract;
We have 3 Hyundai cars in our work fleet, a few more KIA, nothing wrong with them at all & comparable to any mainstream manufacturer as I say.
Phill_1981
24 Oct 15#20
I love the S-Tronic in my S4... Great gearbox.
slex88
24 Oct 152#18
The 5 year warranty and roadside assistance is fantastic. ...because of this I will only be having Hyundai in the foreseeable future.
Bisham
24 Oct 151#17
VW Group have got them right with their DSG auto with dual clutches. Unlike the Hyundais' DCT box, the DSGs can actually improve on the manual box's performance and economy, whereas Hyundai's DCTs are significantly worse than their manuals. I've had 2 Leon FRs with DSG (petrol and now diesel) and its a fantastic box..wouldnt go back to a manual now.
srp111
24 Oct 152#16
I own one and have to say the build quality is great, the aftercare service is amazing at my local dealer, and the 5 year warranty is there just in case. Im very happy with hyundai, a lot of car for not a lot of money.
zoopakev
24 Oct 151#15
My sister has this car .... really really good, been very impressed with it.
Sharpharp
24 Oct 15#14
Do you own one? Having owned a couple of these, old and new gen, build quality is poor compared to any other manufacturer. Even the Kia's are leagues above the Hyundais
groenleader
24 Oct 15#4
These dual clutches are not as nice as good torque converter auto. Quite a few of engines and the non manual transmissons are sadly way behind the games at Hyundai and Kia. Not say the rest of the cars are not....
Just as everyone is switching back to quality traditional autos and advanced CVT's here is Hyundai and Kia getting there 2006 on!
ezzer72 to groenleader
24 Oct 15#11
DCT is a very good system - just because VW Group couldn't get them right (surprise surprise) that doesn't make them bad.
rbsjp
24 Oct 15#10
OOS
rugman
24 Oct 15#9
out of stock now
rugman
24 Oct 15#8
very tempting, but a £1k more than the last deal, no free servicing deal and also pre-reg, but you do get 16" alloys and auto gearbox with this over the other deal...mmmm decisions...
nnj10
24 Oct 151#3
Is this not 1K dearer than deal listed few weeks ago?
PhoenixRising to nnj10
24 Oct 15#7
That was for the Manual version. I forgot how much the Auto version was at the time.
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Latest comments (68)
Night night :smiley:
The cheapest '62 plate '3 nav' is £15,000 by the way, they appear to rise to a little over £16,000;
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/search/used/cars/kia/sportage/postcode/la15sw/radius/1501/keywords/nav/sort/default/onesearchad/used/engine-size-cars/1-7l_to_1-9l/seller-type/trade_adverts/maximum-age/up_to_3_years_old/maximum-mileage/up_to_30000_miles
You really do try to 'fudge' these things, don't you?
Anyway, I'd forgotten all about this thread, wasn't deliberately not replying - I just popped back to say it would seem I'm right AGAIN, VW have today announced they have been cheating with their petrol cars too, just like I said.
And I'm not talking about NOX, they have admitted to cheating relating to CO2 on petrols and diesels.
Junk.
I can confirm however that Kia use PCP properly, in my opinion/experience at least, and set it up so you will have decent equity at the end of the term - guess what, that makes it likely people will buy another Kia.
A Sportage 3 Sat Nav on 36m/10k per annum usually generates a GFV of around £8500-£9000. Please provide a link where a three year old one can be bought for that, +/- 10% of course...
The opposite of this is what happens with VW/Audi/BMW/Mini (and Citroen/Peugeot to be fair). GFV's are set high to enable the 'posh' cars to have cheap monthly payments, and people end up nailed into them with negative equity right up until the end, when there may be a few bob of equity, if they are lucky.
So GFV most certainly isn't a standard 10% rule of thumb thing - you are not in the industry, I am.
When making the GTi/GT comparison, you remembered the 16bhp power difference, but didn't tell everyone that the Cee'd engine is almost 25% smaller. I can't believe you have the audacity to talk about fuel consumption and tax bandings under the current circumstances - unbelievable.
And you seem very confident that VW's demand will stay high - haha, good luck with that.
I'm sure you work the same way at Kia, that GT has a £7500 GFV, someone gets offered £8500 in p/x and then you put it on the used forecourt for £11k, willing to be knocked down £500-1000. So no, no one buys a 3 year old Ceed GT for £7500, they will probably buy it for £10.5k from you, having made £2k on it.
There seems to be plenty of 62 plate 30k miler Sportage 3 1.7CRDIs about with a sticker price of about £14k. So you take your £9k GFV, give them £10.5k in p/x against the next one and put it up for £14k, willing to accept £13k.
Yes that Ceed GT is 25% smaller on the displacement than a Golf GTI, that should make it more frugal - works for most car companies.
On a petrol car there are no NOx issues (not even VW TFSIs)- if you understood rudimentary mechanical engineering, chemistry and thermodynamics you'd understand why petrol engines don't generate NOx like diesels (all diesels) do. You need very high temperatures, pressure and a big excess of air to produce NOx from the air the engine sucks in.
Diesel combusts at around 800C under far higher pressures than petrol cars generate. Petrol is sparked at about 130C and peak cylinder temp is about 250C, the cylinder pressure can be 4x less in a petrol than a diesel, a combination of 2/3 the compression ratio and much lower temp (ever heard of Boyles law?) - not enough temp, pressure and excess air to make meaningful amounts of NOx in a petrol engine. On the other hand, CO2 generated is directly proportional to the fuel consumption. If we were taxed on our cars based on NOx emissions, petrol cars would be far more popular.
I'm sure you work the same way at Kia, that GT has a £7500 GFV, someone gets offered £8500 in p/x and then you put it on the used forecourt for £11k, willing to be knocked down £500-1000. So no, no one buys a 3 year old Ceed GT for £7500, they will probably buy it for £10.5k from you, having made £2k on it.
There seems to be plenty of 62 plate 30k miler Sportage 3 1.7CRDIs about with a sticker price of about £14k. So you take your £9k GFV, give them £10.5k in p/x against the next one and put it up for £14k, willing to accept £13k.
Yes that Ceed GT is 25% smaller on the displacement than a Golf GTI, that should make it more frugal - works for most car companies.
On a petrol car there are no NOx issues (not even VW TFSIs)- if you understood rudimentary mechanical engineering, chemistry and thermodynamics you'd understand why petrol engines don't generate NOx like diesels (all diesels) do. You need very high temperatures, pressure and a big excess of air to produce NOx from the air the engine sucks in.
Diesel combusts at around 800C under far higher pressures than petrol cars generate. Petrol is sparked at about 130C and peak cylinder temp is about 250C, the cylinder pressure can be 4x less in a petrol than a diesel, a combination of 2/3 the compression ratio and much lower temp (ever heard of Boyles law?) - not enough temp, pressure and excess air to make meaningful amounts of NOx in a petrol engine. On the other hand, CO2 generated is directly proportional to the fuel consumption. If we were taxed on our cars based on NOx emissions, petrol cars would be far more popular.
So you want to throw an argument in without inviting a comeback?
For your extra £4k spent you will get better brakes, the ACC system (radar based active cruise control, will also warn you if the car in front jumps on the brakes, then brake if you still don't react), the Golf is 0.8s quicker to 62mph, more frugal, 85Nm more torque, more BHP, equipment inside and out look comparable on both, the GTI gets a few things the Kia doesn't and vice versa. You spend £4k more on the GTI, but will see a GFV £6k higher at 3 years old. That will translate to a likely p/x difference of £6500. You will get all of your extra spend back and then some.
So GFV isn't exactly what you'll get offered in p/x, but it's representative of what to expect - GFV + 10% "equity" to hook you into another. That cheaper car with poor residuals will cost you a lot more than the dearer one with far better residuals. Supply and demand dictates residuals, seems that no-one wants a 3 year old Ceed GT unless it is very cheap.
1999 VW Polo 1.4TDI - a small seam with split stitching on the back seat that was missed at PDI and discovered by me when I scotchgarded the interior cloth a few days into ownership.
2001 VW Polo 1.9TDI - The turbo was a little temperamental after 6k miles, one in 10 ignition cycles it was not working, and the turbo was replaced. My dad had the car off me for what I was offered in p/x on my next one and drove it to 84k miles with not a bit of further bother.
2005 VW Golf 140TDI GT - nothing wrong with this one at all, except cosmetic corrosion ("whiteworm") on the diamond cut alloys, all replaced no bother. It's a common defect across all marques when diamond cut alloys are used - i prefer painted ones.
2007 VW Golf 170TDI GT - the first VW engine with a DPF. In the first week the DPF was filling up and wouldn't clear. The techs thought it might be a leaking injector and found a tiny burr on the cylinder head interior, and replaced it, thinking that was the cause. A week later the DPF issues were still happening and after consultation with the Fatherland a software update was applied and the issue was never seen again. a few days after that my 412 mile old Golf was clouted by a bus when parked up - I found the car 12 feet away from where I parked it up. The bus driver did not stop but a kind soul took down the details and it was repaired - badly, and re-repaired, and re-repaired. I hated the car after that and chopped it in for a 2009 Scirocco 140TDI.
Scirocco 140TDI GT - great car, a real head turner back then when there were few around and the other car makers hadn't yet cloned it, only trouble was I was that desperate to get shot of the badly repaired Golf, I didn't have the patience to wait for the 170TDI to be released. Not a thing wrong with it at all in the time I had it.
2011 VW Scirocco 170TDI - a little blip with the DCC controller that played up a little in the coldest winter in ages. After the car warmed up the fault was cleared on the next ignition cycle.
2013 Golf GTD - great car, lots of kit, good output, good mpg, **** initial traction because VW decided to shoe it with Bridgestones - how Bridgestones are considered a premium tyre manufacturer is beyond me. Average dry grip and abysmal wet grip, relatively hardwearing - no way in the world I would ever buy a Bridgestone tyre with my own money. Only thing wrong with it was the goosed front shock mount bearings - the dealer had forgotten to remove one of the 3 sets of transport pucks the car ships with. Not really VW's fault.
Now i'm in a VW Golf R, and it is an amazing car to drive, if a little thirstier than i'm used to (although 32mpg i'm getting is 80% of published combined figure.
So there you are, my warts and all VW history. Never had a VW break down on me, all pretty minor issues fixed under warranty. Every defect I have had has occurred within year 1 of ownership - isn't that what warranty is for?
i40
Vivaro
No doubt you'll accuse me of buying that off eBay, but it was actually in a drawer in one of my spare bedrooms.
p.s. when did I ever defend Vauxhalls? I may have said that they were at least honestly priced compared to some of your 'junk of choice', but I have no love for them at all.
p.p.s. I don't drive a 7k bland pensioner wagon - there are genuinely good cars out there, if you open your mind and take a proper look
Haha, so, it's the kind of thing that an expensive masterpiece of German engineering should have, but not a cheap and nasty Korean 'granny' car?
I'm struggling to see the point you are desperately trying to make?
Here's what happens when VW try to be smart and fit 'clever' things like multi-link (and some other random faults for good measure);
Many Golf's don't have multi link;
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/new-2013-vw-golf-mk7-revealed/1201039
But EVERY Kia Cee'd does;
I'll keep saying it until you get it - VW are scammers, there really isn't anything remarkable about what they do - except for the inflated prices.
When I google for "worldwide car reliability 2015" or "worlds most reliable car manufacturer 2015" I get nothing. I get plenty of stats for the UK, where the Japanese dominate, with the odd spattering of everything else in the top 20.
In the top 20 of the link below there 3 VAG cars and 2 Kia/Hyundai group cars, and surprisingly there's a Land Rover at no 21 (aren't the wheels supposed to fall off those as soon as you're 2 miles from the garage you bought it from according to some?)!
autoexpress reliability
When you look at that link, the reliability% score between No1 at 98.81 and No 100 at 93.01 isn't exactly huge - we're not seeing cars 20 times more likely to fail on average compared to others as Ezzer would have you believe.
VW money saving that is obvious to me is limited to the fact that they no longer put the clear coat on the paintwork that can't be seen (like tucked right up in the interior of the wings that you can see if you look hard enough with the front door open. You might be looking to mention the water pump that is built to last 90k miles, but that's just common sense - it runs off the timing belt/chain, and if it seizes then your timing belt/chain is going to stretch or snap. It's a preventative measure, to stop something far worse happening should the water pump fail - knowing how long you expect a component to last and requesting it's replacement after that time is responsible maintenance planning.
Most older cars fail mechanically due to poor maintenance - plenty of people don't want to pay out £200 on a service for a car worth £1500, and plenty are loathed to pay £300 for a much needed timing belt.
This is fact, I have first hand experience 'behind the scenes' at VW, and this is the reason why the cars are so shamefully fragile.
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/11/14/vw-worldwide-engine-light-recall/
I like the way that VW have only been busted for their diesels so far - I GUARANTEE that we'll find out they were at something similar with their petrol cars too, wait and see...
All 8 of your VW's have had faults, but your Dad's 'example' car didn't. Hmmm, okay.
The German refinement is all in your (and other 'mugs') heads - I'll grant you the performance thing, though other nations have managed better, pro-rata.
The market share isn't tiny - admittedly, it's smaller than VW's, just as every manufacturer's is. We will of course see a change in this pattern from now onwards, now as VW have admitted to being lying, cheating scumbags.
Greggs have the largest market share in their field too. Discuss.
And yes, you make a fair point about the poaching, just as long as they keep to styling and tuning and don't start suggesting plastic engine components it'll be all good in the hood.
Worlds luckiest man that every other VW ever sold has blown up except his? Backed up by the words of a car salesman as gospel.
There's a variety of reasons why Kia occupy a certain small segment in the UK market, They have a long warranty (built into the price) and they're cheap. You get nothing for nothing though - in that cheap Kia you can see where money has been saved. They are not offering German levels of refinement and performance for pennies - you get what you pay for in the new car market - a £10k car is noticeably a £10k car when sat next to a £15k car.
They are trying to look like German cars though and poaching executives from German manufacturers, so the Germans must be doing something right by the Koreans.
You were kinda right with that :wink:
Anyway, the scandal isn't over yet, so get back in your box for a while.
You will find that with the VAG DSG, if anything is going to go then it's the mechatronic unit and even then it's a rare event that'll generally happen within the first year of ownership, well within warranty. If you look on the net for an issue you'll always find that 1 person that had an issue with their product, but not the hundreds that had no issue. If you're prepared to spout random threads from honest John or whoever, you'll find people with all marques have issues.
Can you honestly say that all Kias and Hyundais will get to 11 years old without issues either?
Most Kias are tiny pensioner shopping trolleys with a dearth of equipment to go wrong, do tiny mileages and never get driven to half their potential. My best mate's 77 year old dad has just sold his 14 year old Micra and my mate raves about how reliable it has been. It gets an oil change and air filter change every year, new spark plugs every other year and has done 26k miles from new. I'd be disappointed if it had been troublesome. He has just bought a new Kia Picanto. If he lives to be 100 and still has that car it'll likely not do 20k miles. Would that make it super reliable next to a 15 year old BMW 320d with 200k miles on the clock when something big goes wrong?
I'm just saying (my own experience) the dual clutch gearbox in my car is 11 years old and has been trouble free.
The IX35 is 3 years old and has a clutch issue that Hyundai refuse to acknowledge. The electrics in the car are also pants. Radio doesn't work properly, air con often does its own thing. Drive itself is nice.
Incidentally my 9 year old 1 series now needs a new timing chain/or hopefully tensioner.
Moral of the story, cars go wrong. But Hyundai does seem to have a lot of faults for a 3 year old car. Probably wouldn't buy another BMW or Hyundai.
No trouble from car or gear box in 140k so far.
I think the poorer system used in some cars is a single automated clutch, this deal is for a dual clutch of which I have found (in the VAG variant) to be good.
Seems like a good deal for the money they are asking - the depreciation over 3-5 years in real terms (actual cost rather than percentage) must be low too.
The whole internet knows that if you google anything, it MUST be true. Therefore , it likely isn't.
Please explian 're build quality
Enforced recalls in America, Australia amongst many.
The fact your gearboxes have been fine is a rare occurence apparently.
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/keywords/?word=DSG
Just as everyone is switching back to quality traditional autos and advanced CVT's here is Hyundai and Kia getting there 2006 on!
Reviews here http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/reviews/hyundai/i30/hatchback/owner-reviews